Talk:John Tregonwell

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Wives

The text in the Old DNB (and in this article until 26 Jan 2021) read

"He had married, first, a wife named Kellaway, by whom he had no children; secondly, Elizabeth Bruce, who was buried on 17 January 1582, by whom he had, with other children, Thomas, who died during his father's lifetime, and who was the father of John Tregonwell, who succeeded to Sir John's property. His daughter Anne married Richard Reade, Lord Chancellor of Ireland. Another daughter Mary married a Mr. Delahyde."

But on 26 January an editor with ip address only made their sole edit (at this diff) altering the sequence of wives as follows:

"He had married, first, a wife named Elizabeth Bruce, by whom he had, with other children, Thomas, who died during his father's lifetime, and who was the father of John Tregonwell, who succeeded to Sir John's property; secondly, Elizabeth Martin (nee Kellaway), the widow of Robert Martin of Athelhampton, by whom he had no children and who was buried on 17 January 1582. His daughter Anne married Richard Reade, Lord Chancellor of Ireland. Another daughter Mary married a Mr. Delahyde."

While the second version might be correct - I don't know - the change in information is entirely unsupported by the general reference of this text to the Old DNB or by any other citation given by this editor, and is therefore unverifiable as it stands, and misrepresents the stated source. Question: Was this a sophisticated vandalism, or an informed but insufficiently sourced correction? I have not removed it because it may contain a true correction. I will dig about for some answers. Eebahgum (talk) 20:11, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, here goes: The identity of the first wife, Elizabeth Newce (or Newes), as explained by Bayley in Notes and Queries 1912, is shown with reference to the escutcheon to the right of Sir John on his tomb (as you look at it, or sinister in the monument), where Tregonwell impales the diagonally quartered shield with chaplets for Newce of Oxford, as given in Papworth's Ordinary. ("Bruce" is right out of the story.) She has to be the mother of Thomas, because Thomas has made two marriages and is dead by 1565 (Sir John's will), leaving his own son the heir John Tregonwill, a minor. Sir John cannot have married his second wife before 1548 at the earliest, because her first husband Robert Martyn died in that year (Will, PCC) so she wasn't available to marry anyone else before that, and they had 9 children living according to Robert Martin's will. Lastly, that Elizabeth the widow of Robert Martyn WAS the second wife of Tregonwell, is shown from her PCC will proved 1584 where she says: "part of the goods and chattells of Sir John Tregonwell my husband were during the entermarriage gottenn and procured with the profittes and revenues of suche lyvinges as I had from and by my first husband [interlined] Robert Martyn Esquyer deceased", which pretty much clinches it, and ties her in with the Dorset and Hampshire Visitations, and with the heraldry of the other impalement on Sir John's tomb. The correct statements are out there in the literature: this is just a process of verification and elimination. Eebahgum (talk) 07:21, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

and p.s. Miss Newce was not necessarily Elizabeth: she is called this by sources who believed her to be the second wife, who was Elizabeth. Eebahgum (talk) 23:56, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All of this adds up to an excellent case for the ideas that (1) John Tregonwell's first wife was a woman named Newce and that (2) Elizabeth Martin (nee Kellaway) was his second wife, not his first. As far as I can tell, it does not add up, nor do any of the cited sources add up, to proof for the claim, present in the Wikipedia page for John Tregonwell, and also in the Wikipedia page for Richard Reade who was lord chancellor of Ireland, that John Tregonwell had a daughter named Anne who was the wife of that particular Richard Reade. I would be delighted to find proof that this was the case, since my sister-in-law is a descendant of Richard Reade, but I'm not finding it. If someone can point to even circumstantial evidence for this claim, I would be interested to see it. Right now it just looks like junk genealogy. I'd love to be wrong. pnh (talk) 00:22, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And incidentally, contrary to the first post on this Talk page, the text of the John Tregonwell article in the Old DNB does _not_ contain the line "His daughter Anne married Richard Reade, Lord Chancellor of Ireland." You can see for yourself at https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnati57stepuoft/page/172/mode/2up. pnh (talk) 18:04, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]