Talk:John Stewart, 2nd Lord of Aubigny

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On 22 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from John Stewart, 3rd Lord of Aubigny to John Stewart, 2nd Lord of Aubigny. The result of the discussion was moved.

Renumbering the Aubigny Lords

I have done some little edits on the 1st lord of Aubigny, using Lady Elizabeth Cust's old book on these Lords, perhaps rashly, and hoped to do so for the other lords. However John Stewart is not the 3rd lord, but the 2nd, and I see that Whaleyland had proposed recently that this error be correct. But I do not know how to contact this person, and would like to.1f2 (talk) 09:01, 3 May 2019 (UTC) It may be that Alan Stewart was the 2nd lord, and relinquished them to the second son John in 1437, but this is a numbering that Cust does not recognise. If so, there needs to be some clafficiation, perhaps.[reply]

Renumbering is a significat job, and I would like more references before doing that. I will also leave a note at User Talk:Whaleyland.--Dthomsen8 (talk) 07:19, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for tagging me in. I actually have a bolder idea: drop the numbers altogether. Numbers are something that is done in the English/Scottish/British peerages, not in the French peerage, and the Seigneurs d'Aubigny were definitely French lords even if the title was generally just used in pretence or as an honour. I really see no reason we need to keep them. – Whaleyland (Talk • Contributions) 22:54, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My above query was my error. As I undestand it from Elizabeth Cust, 'Some account of the Stuarts of Aubigny in France [1422-1672]', 1891, the first lord was John Stewart of Darnley, who was killed at the Battle of the Red Herrings in 1429. His eldest son Sir Alan Stewart inherited his father's estates and remained in France fighting for Charles VII until 1427, when he returned to Scotland, and at that time transferred his french estates to his younger brother John Stewart (d.1482), who warred for Louis XI, et cet. In Wikipedia, there is no tag for the 2nd Lord of Aubigny, and John Stewart is tagged as the 3rd Lord of Aubigny. So Alan Stewart was the 2nd Lord (and he is described as Lord of Aubigny in his entry), and that the numbering in Wikipedia is correct. Perhaps I should have deleted my above query, and I am sorry to put you to the trouble, but thankful for your replies.

I agree that the numbering of these lords be deleted.1f2 (talk) 00:23, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Though contested, no one has opposed the move, even almost two weeks after notifying WikiProjects. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 03:46, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

John Stewart, 3rd Lord of Aubigny → John Stewart, 2nd Lord of Aubigny – Incorrect numbering. There is a source in the article showing this, and I can provide further evidence if needed. Can't move as it is a redirect from a previous page move. SamWilson989 (talk) 02:45, 21 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. --lettherebedarklight – 晚安 (おやすみなさい)。 08:18, 4 June 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 05:23, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). DanCherek (talk) 05:45, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The move history and discussion at Talk:John Stewart, 3rd Lord of Aubigny indicates that there may be enough controversy that this should be discussed. I noticed that you moved it to the requested title then moved it back. If you moved it back because you were uncertain, this isn't the place to determine whether the proposed title was correct, but rather a full move discussion may help to settle on a lasting title. If, per the linked discussion, the numbering scheme in general may be worth revisiting, it would be a good idea to start an RM for multiple such titles to ensure consistency. ASUKITE 16:51, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I hadn't discovered that talk page so thanks for bringing it to my attention. I reverted my page move because there was a misspelling - not because I am uncertain. There's numerous independent sources showing that the numbering currently used in this article's title is incorrect, including the relevant pages of the Lords of Aubigny in the ODNB. I would support changing them all to "John Stewart, Lord of Aubigny" (or similar) if it wasn't for the fact that there were three John Stewarts who were Lords of Aubigny and two Esmé Stewarts who were Lords of Aubigny. It would be disambiguation pages all the way down - very confusing for readers. Therefore in my view this isn't a sensible suggestion. Please advise though if you still think a full move discussion is worth it. Thanks for your help - I've not been involved in moving pages like this before. SamWilson989 (talk) 22:57, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm converting this to a full RM discussion as I think that would be helpful for clarifying the 2nd vs 3rd issue, or whether folks think the page should be moved to something else entirely as mentioned above. DanCherek (talk) 05:45, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you @DanCherek, much appreciated.

For clarity, my argument for this move rests on two main sources. Firstly, Elizabeth Cust, whose work on the lords of Aubigny is relied upon in almost all the articles relating to them on this site, makes it clear in her 1891 work (Some Account of the Stuarts of Aubigny in France 1422-1672) on pg.91 that Alan Stewart of Darnley never succeeded his father as Lord of Aubigny and therefore was not the second Lord but his younger brother, John Stewart (who this RM is about). Secondly, the ODNB entries for the Lords of Aubigny - including, but not limited to, the articles on Esmé Stewart (c. 1542–1583), Ludovic Stewart (1574–1624), and Charles Stewart (1639–1672) - give precise numbering of their lordships of Aubigny which supports the case for Alan Stewart of Darnley never being one of them. Further, this article about a portrait of George Stewart calls him the "ninth member...to hold this [lordship]." This can only be the case if Alan Stewart never succeeded to his father's place in Aubigny and therefore John Stewart is the 3rd, not the 2nd Lord. Hence the requested move. SamWilson989 (talk) 13:50, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject France has been notified of this discussion. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 05:21, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Scotland has been notified of this discussion. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 05:22, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relister comment Decided to try to summon WikiProjects along with another relist. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 05:23, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.