Talk:John Rose (Tennessee politician)

To add to article

To add to the article: Rose's holding up (on procedural grounds) of a $19.1 billion disaster relief bill in the U.S. House of Representatives in May 2019. 173.88.241.33 (talk) 00:21, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Allegations regarding when he met his wife

I've given the article a week of semi-protection because of a brewing edit war over allegations that Rose met his wife Chelsea when she was still in high school. This may be related to this Twitter thread. The articles cited in that thread claim:

• Chelsea graduated from high school in 2007
• Chelsea and John met (not necessarily for the first time) in January 2008, when she was "Tennessee Association FFA President".
• In 2010, Chelsea credits John and the Jerry and Betty Williams Rose Scholarship with making "everything possible that Ive done in FFA beyond high school".
• They were married in January 2011, when Chelsea was "a junior Rose Scholarship recipient at Tennessee Technological University".

While their relationship clearly breaks the Half Your Age Plus Seven Rule, I'm seeing no evidence presented, either that she was a "child bride", or that they met while she was in high school. Under BLP, I believe this sort of claim requires citation. Bovlb (talk) 20:41, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Bovlb, this is clearly a significant detail about John Rose's life, as "grooming" a student is an incredibly taboo behavior, especially from a position of power. And this seems to be held true on Wikipedia as well. For example, Jerry Seinfeld's wikipedia page mentions his previous relationship with a 17/18 year old, but Seinfeld's relationship was a smaller "age gap" and did not end in marriage. A good compromise would be to create a "controversy" section which also is common on Wikipedia. Then people who do not see his marriage to a student that he helped to attain a scholarship (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPmqQ9CXwAksRQL) as controversial, can add their own "side" of the issue with the extenuating circumstances that makes this okay. 72.89.185.54 (talk) 22:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Also I should point out (i made an account to continue the discussion) that a week of blocking edits to the article is a political move attempting to bury controversial behavior by a specific senator. There is clearly some sort of compromise that is needed immediately. The easiest way to keep trolls and upset people from editing the page at random is not to block their edits, it's to acknowledge their widely accepted and neutral POV that John Rose's grooming is controversial, just in a less hyperbolic way. AnAngelsentbyGod (talk) 22:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

There is no political move here. Temporary protection is a normal procedure in such cases. If we reach a consensus here, then the protection can be ended early.

We cannot include allegations of this type (against living people) without some sourcing to back it up, and no-one has presented any evidence so far. If the allegations are true, then find reliable sources that say so.

Edit warring and ad homimen attacks are not the way to proceed and will end up with users getting blocked instead.

The evidence so far shows that he married an adult university student, much younger than himself, who was at the time in receipt of a scholarship that he may have had some control over. Do you have anything else? Where does the "grooming" come from? Bovlb (talk) 22:49, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I've raised the issue and put out a call for more eyes at WP:BLPN. Connormah (talk) 22:58, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

"Controversial" is a bit of a loaded word. I think it would be fair for the page to include a few words about how they met, as long as it's well-sourced and doesn't insinuate there was anything untoward going on. Aresef (talk) 02:02, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Adding the clause "whom he met when she was in high school" is both factually correct and neutral. --173.77.206.15 (talk) 03:10, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps you are new here, and you don't realise the importance we attach to verifiability and reliable sources. You don't get to just claim something is true, and then we put it in the article. For a claim like this, there actually has to be some evidence. If the claim is "factually correct", why is no-one providing that evidence? All we have so far is that she left high school in 2007, and their earliest documented meeting was in 2008. That does not appear to substantiate your claim. Bovlb (talk) 04:21, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

It is noteworthy that they began associating when she was a college freshman who had received a scholarship from him. AnAngelsentbyGod (talk) 21:22, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

@AnAngelsentbyGod: It might be noteworthy. Can you provide a reference to a reliable source that takes note of it? Bovlb (talk) 22:08, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I have removed the text "John is 24 years older than Chelsea and he met her when she was still a child. They began publicly dating shortly after she turned 18." added by @Anarkiddie. Again, we can't put claims like that in unless we have reliable sources we can cite. Bovlb (talk) 22:08, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

@Anarkiddie Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought.

You can:

✔️ quote reliable sources

✔️ paraphrase reliable sources

✔️ repeat claims that are specifically made in reliable sources

But you cannot

❌ synthesize information you find in a source

❌ extrapolate or deduce based on information you find in source(s)

❌ conduct original research

Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 22:23, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I'll make an attempt to summarize the sources I've seen, and what's in them. I can't find a reliable source for Doss's birth date, but she was a high school student from 2003 through 2007. I also found a possible newspaper reference, but it's paywalled.

• Marchesoni, Lisa (April 1, 2007). "Post Top 10: Eagleville sounds off". Murfreesboro Post. Principal Rhonda Holton said student Chelsea Doss won a state contest and became state president of the Future Farmers of America.
  • Doss was in high school at this point.
• "FFA State Champions Again!" (PDF). Eagleville Times. Vol. 5, no. 8. Eagleville, Tennessee. April 16–30, 2007. p. 13.
  • Doss was part of the Eagleville High School FFA Chapter at this point.
• "One Million Dollars Set Aside for FFA And 4-H Of Tennessee" (PDF). Eagleville Times. Vol. 6, no. 3. Eagleville, Tennessee. February 1–15, 2008. p. 7.
  • Doss met John Rose at a ceremony with the Governor announcing state funding for FFA and 4-H. Rose was present as a member of the Tennessee FFA Foundation Board of Directors. Doss would have been a freshman at this time, and Rose, forty-two years old.
• "Christiana's Doss to meet Education Secretary". Murfreesboro Post. Jan 21, 2010.
  • Doss describes a one-on-one relationship with Rose as a college student. Note also the description of "the scholarship that he provides", which is an odd way of describing it.

    She credits several people for helping her achieve her goal, including TTU alumus and TTU Foundation Board of Directors Chairperson John W. Rose. Doss is recipient of the Jerry and Betty Williams Rose Scholarship, named for John Roses parents. In addition to his generous contributions to TTU, Rose also is president of Nashville-based Boson Software LLC. He served as Middle Tennessee state FFA vice president while a student at TTU and paved the way for FFA members such as Doss. John has made everything possible that Ive done in FFA beyond high school. Through the scholarship that he provides, Ive not had to have a job through college. Ive been able to train, improve, focus on FFA and focus on school. That scholarship has made all the difference, Doss said. He has also coached me during my preparation, which has been extremely helpful.

• "Engagement Announcement: Doss ~ Rose" (PDF). Eagleville Times. Vol. 9, no. 1. Eagleville, Tennessee. January 2011. p. 7.
  • Doss and Rose were (scheduled to be) married on January 8, 2011. Doss graduated from Eagleville High School in 2007, started college at Tennessee Technological University in 2007, and as of 2011, was expecting to graduate that year. The announcement makes no mention of how they met, only providing bios for each of them separately.
• "Executive Director's Report". Annual Report (PDF) (Report). Tennessee Future Farmers of America Foundation, Inc. 2014. p. 9.
  • At this point, Chelsea Rose was Executive Director of Tennessee FFA (see page 2); she mentions joining the FFA as a freshman at Eagleville High School in 2003.

The tweet from Brian Tyler Cohen states: "NEW: As Republicans accuse others of being “groomers,” new details are surfacing about Congressman John Rose (R-TN), who met his now-wife in his 40s while she was an underage teenager. He paid her with a scholarship that she says “made everything possible” and then married her." We do not know that Rose met Doss while she was an underage teenager, and it's unsupported to say that he "paid her with a scholarship".

Open questions: how old was Doss when they were married? When was their first son, Guy, born? When did they first meet? When did their relationship begin? I've been unable to find information on this, so we're going to have to stick with what we can verify. If any enterprising reporters write stories, we can update the page.

Proposed text:

Rose met his wife, Chelsea (née Doss) when she was a freshman at Tennessee Technological University and he was forty-two. She cited his provision of the Rose Scholarship as well as his coaching as instrumental in her success in Future Farmers of America. They were married in January 2011, and live in Cookeville, Tennessee. In November 2019, their anticipated second child died due to complications during pregnancy. As of 2022, they have two sons, Guy and Sam.

Hopefully this will help shed some light. grendel|khan 17:34, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate the research and time you have put into this, but to me, this still seems to violate WP:SYNTH, and we need to be especially careful for claims like this in a BLP. We don't have an obligation to report their ages when they met or married, regardless of whatever viral Twitter threads are out there. Connormah (talk) 18:34, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I think it's worth adding because it's so unusual, but until there's proper media attention on it, I see where you're coming from.

Rose met his wife, Chelsea (née Doss) when she was a freshman at Tennessee Technological University in 2008. She cited his provision of the Rose Scholarship as well as his coaching as instrumental in her success in Future Farmers of America. They were married in January 2011, and live in Cookeville, Tennessee. In November 2019, their anticipated second child died due to complications during pregnancy. As of 2022, they have two sons, Guy and Sam.

How's that? grendel|khan 18:45, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

It indeed perhaps might garner media attention, but I would err on the side of caution at this point and just stick the status quo. As many have pointed out, the dots are definitely out there and readily available for connecting, but I'd say our BLP policy precludes any mentions of syntheses of that nature. We need to be careful. Connormah (talk) 20:11, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Agree with this. There’s no need to add any more detail than we already have because as of right now, there’s no coverage of it. This is different from the Anthony Bouchard, when a politician’s past sex life was national news, partly because he announced it on Facebook Live. Even then, I think we’re careful to write only the verified facts and avoid repeating speculations or accusations. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 23:26, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

 Comment: Anything added should stick to pure restatements of sources and any conclusions should be left to the reader, unless and until reliable sources begin reporting on this, discovering new facts, and synthesizing facts themselves. Their synthesis could then be used and cited. The proposed text above seems to not stick to the BLP cautionary principle by implying the start of their relationship in the sentence’s context and by implying that it was their first meeting. We cannot know if their relationship started even earlier or later, and we cannot verify how long they’ve known each other. I have added some material that is independently verifiable. Content explictly stated in sources should be similarly added while being considerate of WP:UNDUE and WP:BLP. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 21:22, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, go strictly by the source, otherwise how would refrain from adding anything about when they met at all. If it's not cited by a reliable source, it's probably not worth mentioning. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 23:49, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

My second attempt there is entirely backed up by the sources I listed above, in this case all local newspapers.

• Rose met Doss in 2008; she was then a freshman at TTU. (The Eagleville Times article from 2008.)

  Specifically: "Tennessee Governor Phil Bredeson met January 18th with Tennessee Association FFA President Chelsea Doss, President of TN Farm Bureau Lacy Upchurch and wife Kay, President of Farmers and Merchants Bank Waymon Hickman, and two members of the Tennessee FFA Foundation Board of Directors Jim Loftis and John Rose."

• Doss received the Rose scholarship and said that Rose personally coached her. (The Murfressboro Post article from 2010.)
• They were scheduled to be married in 2011, and we have no indication that the wedding didn't go forward as planned. (The Eagleville Times article from 2011.)

It's possible that they had met earlier, but not later. To use an excess of caution, we could leave that out entirely and write this:

Rose's wife, Chelsea (née Doss) cited his provision of the Rose Scholarship as well as his coaching as instrumental in her success in Future Farmers of America. They were married in January 2011, during her senior year at Tennessee Technological University, and live in Cookeville, Tennessee. In November 2019, their anticipated second child died due to complications during pregnancy. As of 2022, they have two sons, Guy and Sam.

How's that work? Her being a college student when they married is well-attested and not particularly unduly weighted, I think. grendel|khan 01:11, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I think that’s better user:grendelkhan. But it still shows what we don’t know because she graduated in 2012, perhaps her super-senior year, or perhaps she took a gap year at some point after the engagement and married Rose during her junior year. What about adding info about her characterization of the scholarship to the nonprofit section in this diff where I only mentioned she was a scholarship recipient, and I think appropriately characterized her education in the personal life section (but certainly room for improvement/addition). What do you think about that? Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 01:35, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't looking for sources on this issue, I was more concerned with his claims of being a "farmer," but ran across these two very-recent articles which might be helpful for those looking for sources. I have no idea whether either of them are "reliable" sources, but here you go:
Congressman John Rose is decades older than his wife. They were engaged before she graduated college.
Chelsea Doss Rose, Congressman John Rose’ Wife: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
RLMcGinley (talk) 03:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

The first of those (Substack) is a third-party self-published source, essentially no different from a random Reddit or LiveJournal post or Joe Nobody's basement blog, and cannot be used for claims about living people, no matter who the author is, per WP:BLPSPS. The second source (Heavy.com) is to be used with extreme caution, if at all, and not for contentious claims per Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Heavy.com. --Animalparty! (talk) 07:37, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

• Just a comment on the sources above: they mostly appear to be small local newspapers or even newsletters, with questionable or unclear reliability, and content that appears only in them (i.e. has not been picked up by other reliable media outlets with a broader audience), might thus be considered undue weight, even if the local source had a stellar reputation for credibility. Like, we generally don't cite a local newspaper gushing when a celebrity visits their hometown and makes a splash by eating at the restaurant they worked at in high school, even if the event is verifiable. And if no reliable sources are highlighting the age difference beyond indicating its existence (a "controversy" that only exists in the Twittersphere), then of course Wikipedia should follow suit: WP:NPOV means articles document the mainstream view(s) in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. Wikipedia doesn't drop little hints, selectively add facts/quotes, nor 'connect the dots' to nudge readers towards inferring a scandal. --Animalparty! (talk) 03:17, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

This article was released today:

• Ryan, Ryan; Sammon, Alexander (April 8, 2022). "How Republican Rep. John Rose Found His Wife". The American Prospect. Retrieved 2022-04-08.

The American Prospect is a national news source; it's liberal/progressive, but it's won awards for investigative journalism. The article comes to much the same conclusions that I did above: we don't know when Rose and Doss first met or started seeing each other, as Rose hasn't responded to questions; we know they were at the same meeting in 2008, that she credited him personally with coaching her, and that they were married in 2011. This is now actual news. Here's my draft:

Rose met his wife, Chelsea (née Doss) when she was a student at Tennessee Technological University and he was a member of the Board of Directors. She cited his provision of the Rose Scholarship as well as his coaching as instrumental in her success in Future Farmers of America. They were married in January 2011; at the time, he was 45 and she was 21 and a college senior. They live in Cookeville, Tennessee, and as of 2022, they have two sons, Guy and Sam.

Ryan, Ryan; Sammon, Alexander (April 8, 2022). "How Republican Rep. John Rose Found His Wife". The American Prospect. Retrieved 2022-04-08.

"Biography". johnrose.com.

This seems like a reasonable summary of the facts. Any thoughts? grendel|khan 23:00, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

What is relevant about their ages and her college status? Why not just say:

Rose met his wife, Chelsea (née Doss), when she was a student at Tennessee Technological University, and they were married in January 2011. They live in Cookeville, Tennessee, and have two sons, Guy and Sam.

This seems much better. United States Man (talk) 23:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Ryan, Ryan; Sammon, Alexander (April 8, 2022). "How Republican Rep. John Rose Found His Wife". The American Prospect. Retrieved 2022-04-08.

"Biography". johnrose.com.

• Psst! I did the citation properly, with the correct parameters, earlier in a section below. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 23:45, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  I said this in another thread, but I don’t think the Prospect piece is definitive about when the two met, just some educated guesses based on available published information and the writers seem clear about that. I don’t think there’s any new usable information in the piece. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 03:44, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

  The reason we weren't including any information on that (even their ages at marriage, which is definitive) was that it wasn't established as newsworthy. There's now a secondary source reporting on it; that's what's different. Animalparty wrote above that "if no reliable sources are highlighting the age difference beyond indicating its existence (a "controversy" that only exists in the Twittersphere), then of course Wikipedia should follow suit ... articles document the mainstream view(s) in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources."

  I agree. In this case, digging up a bunch of primary sources is interesting, but it skirts pretty close to WP:SYNTH; if the only reason we're including it is because someone posted a comment on Twitter, even if we can source some of the claims and boil it down to just the facts, we probably shouldn't on a living person's bio. (I realize I made the original proposal; I'm changing my mind about whether it would have been okay to post then.)

  Either way, the Prospect piece is definitive about establishing that their respective ages at marriage and history together (the scholarship and coaching) are noteworthy. Leaving out those facts skips the whole point of the article. United States Man's version is factual, but I strongly prefer mine to theirs. grendel|khan 06:29, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Either text seems appropriate. If this were another BLP, objections could hold more weight, but as an incumbent federal congressman, this is strongly into WP:PUBLICFIGURE. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 20:20, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay; I've decided to be bold and update it. grendel|khan 22:18, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

I don’t feel comfortable using information from a heavily biased source (and one that claims to be biased to a certain viewpoint). I have edited your addition to take out some of that material. United States Man (talk) 00:22, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I feel pretty strongly about this. I'll open an RfC. grendel|khan 18:04, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Removed content

FYI, I removed content from the "personal life section" about the loss of their unborn child (diff: 1081273693). I thought it was a textbook case of WP:UNDUE: we were devoting 113 words in a 163-word section (almost 70%) to a family tragedy that, as far as I can tell, is not central to the subject's notability.

If we're going to restore this content — and I don't feel comfortable with gratuitously bringing up a tragic event — we could do without the level of fluff in the original edit. We don't need to mention that Rose left Washington to be with the mother (what father wouldn't?) or the quote from the mother (it's standard "we're grieving so please respect our privacy" statement) or the place of burial (why?). Just mention that an anticipated child died from complications in the pregnancy. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 15:08, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I've also removed the claim that he received a 91% rating from Americans for Prosperity. I couldn't find a WP:RS that supports this claim. My guess is that it came from Vote Smart (link here), but the March 2022 rating (94%) doesn't match up with what's on the AFP website, which is 83. Since there's no way to source this information reliably without using a primary source, it's probably best to get rid of it altogether. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 13:05, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

First cousin mention

Is it worth mentioning his relation to drummer Artimus Pyle, which is confirmed through obituaries? John's mother Betty Williams Rose was a sister to Pyle's mother Mildred Williams Pyle, which is confirmed through these obituaries. United States Man (talk) 22:05, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Neither of those are reliable sources, as they are user-generated without editorial oversight. See WP:BLPSOURCES. Even if reliable sources can verify relation, if the drummer and the politician are not commonly discussed together in reliable sources, then it may be undue to mention it per WP:VNOTSUFF, WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:PROPORTION. Trivia generally doesn't belong in an encyclopedia (even though some people love it), and merely being true doesn't guarantee inclusion. Artimus Pyle has a lot of trivia and undue family history based on poor sources. --Animalparty! (talk) 00:04, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Should any information about his family be included? (Preempting WP:EW)

While folks above debate the exact language and verifiability of what to add, there appears to be a brewing edit war over whether to add anything at all and even delete sourced, neutral material concerning his family. Keeping WP:BLP and the previous discussions in mind, Add or Don’t add any content? Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 00:56, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:BLP: Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. Mere verifiability of a fact does not mandate inclusion in an encyclopedia article. Per WP:PROPORTION, content can be neutral and reliably sourced but still not warrant inclusion. This is a biography of John Rose, and should primarily be about Rose, regardless of what people on Twitter or blogs are chatting about right now. WP:RECENTISM should also be checked. If other family members are mentioned, by name or otherwise, it should only be in the context of Rose's biography/career, and equal if not more consideration of privacy or potential harm should be considered, especially if they are not public figures. --Animalparty! (talk) 02:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Fair. I will note that I believe Chelsea has been written about enough to be notable in her own right, and appropriate to talk about in the most relevant article, but I will cease adding contentious content and defer to this talk of course due to BLP. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 02:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

My opinion is in line with Animalparty’s, that this is an article about John Rose and not his family, which has not been, and is not a topic of interest beyond Twitter and some small-town media of questionable reliability.

@Ramaksoud2000 I’d say Chelsea has been mentioned, but as she has never been a topic of interest for independent sources (as in, not her hometown paper or a writeup by an organization she belongs to, or a paid wedding announcement). Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 04:02, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I just did a news search. The situation might have changed 2 hours ago. Is this source fact checked, written by people with good reputations for accuracy, on point, and independent?

• Cooper, Ryan; Sammon, Alexander (2022-04-08). "How Republican Rep. John Rose Found His Wife". The American Prospect.

That said, I was actually looking for the "farmer" stuff mentioned elsewhere on this talk page, as this article seems rather thin on much else about the subject. The ratio of section headings to sentences is almost 1:1 in places. Uncle G (talk) 19:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I think Ryan Cooper is a solid reporter and the American Prospect is reliable. What does give me pause is that the Prospect positions itself as a progressive outlet (though every outlet has a slant, acknowledged or not), it's an opinion column, and the basic takeaway is "we can't say for certain, but it doesn't look great" and none of the verifiable information is new to us. I think this is the most solid source we have and it's useful if we do expand the section, but I'd wait for more. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 20:18, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

IT entrepreneur or farmer?

There are incompatible claims in the article that he is and has been an IT entrepreneur for the past thirty years, and that he is a "lifelong farmer." I know IT entrepreneurs, and I know farmers. Neither have time for hobbies. Much less hobbies like being politicians. It seems reasonable to say where his money comes from, but claiming the guy has three careers seems a bit over-the-top. Particularly since it's a self-sourced claim. RLMcGinley (talk) 02:33, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I have inside knowledge of the subject. He is a "farmer" in name only. Although his parents and grandparents lived there, he doesn't live on the farm and doesn't work the farm. He has hired help to do that. The claims of being a farmer are self promotion and aren't exactly true. United States Man (talk) 02:36, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I changed the wording to say he owns the farm, instead of operates. United States Man (talk) 02:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

What you say sounds eminently plausible, and agrees with my perception of reality, but do we have a source other than your inside knowledge and his own claims on his own web site? The only thing that I can find that even vaguely seems like an independent source is this: [1] RLMcGinley (talk) 02:59, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I too want to see the source that indicates that he solely owns and not operates the farm, or something that refutes. You may know IT entrepreneurs and farmers... but to assume here violates several guidelines. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 03:16, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think removing the information is helpful. I only tried to word it better, but whatever. United States Man (talk) 03:20, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I also don't think anyone's opinion of what constitutes too many careers or one's perception of time and hobbies is grounds for removal either. United States Man (talk) 03:25, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I did a quick search and couldn’t find a reliable source supporting the “lifelong farmer” claim. It does appear to come from his own press kit though. I’ll go ahead and remove it - I think the mention that he owns a farm is enough. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 03:52, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

RfC: Should we include his age and the age of his wife at marriage?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

John Rose married his wife while she was in college and he was in his forties. This was first noted in a Twitter thread, and later in an article in The American Prospect. Should the "Personal life" section read Rose and his wife Chelsea (née Doss) married in January 2011. or something more like Rose met his wife, Chelsea (née Doss) when she was a student at Tennessee Technological University and he was a member of the Board of Directors. She cited his provision of the Rose Scholarship as well as his coaching as instrumental in her success in Future Farmers of America. They were married in January 2011; at the time, he was 45 and she was 21 and a college senior.? grendel|khan 18:13, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose – I fail to understand the relevance of their ages. I don’t see this on Wikipedia in general, so why is it necessary here. His birthdate can be used to determine age if a reader is that interested. Also, the section is not about his wife, so going into detail about her on a page about him while using a source that is admittedly biased politically seems to be irrelevant and undue weight. United States Man (talk) 21:04, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - this was reported by one source, and the Twitter thread shouldn't even be counted here because it's the same source. WP:ONUS, not all verifiable content needs to be included on Wikipedia. If it's only cited by one source, it's probably not worth mentioning in an encyclopedia article. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 21:38, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose -- not notable enough to warrant a mention. It isn't as if other sources have mentioned this. Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 23:15, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
• Support including verifiable facts about their relative positions, including the proposed text. Per WP:PUBLICFIGURE, privacy is lowest for an incumbent federal congressman. But privacy is not even implicated. Only one recent, reliable source so far has synthesized the information to imply impropriety, but many reliable, contemporary, secondary sources established the underlying facts based primarily on the Roses’ own quotes and own newspaper advertisement to announce their engagement. Both the husband and wife are notable in their own right, hold prominent offices, and have verifiable, noteworthy facts about their marriage that should be included. Merely repeating facts that the subjects themselves have established, without any commentary or implication, is not improper.

Clearly, many in the United States do not find his marriage to a 21-year-old to be objectionable and have elected Rose twice. Child marriage in the United States involving much younger individuals is widespread and fully legal. "Between 2000 and 2018, nearly 300,000 minors were legally married in the United States... only 14% of the child marriages conducted from 2000 to 2010 were between two children marrying each other. In most cases, child marriages are between a minor and an adult." A higher standard for including Rose's marriage's relatively benign circumstances than the standard for including everything else in the article, mentioned less often in sources, reflects only editors' personal opinion that the neutral facts are scandalous.

Excluding these verifiable facts written from a strictly neutral POV fails to provide WP:DUE weight relative to how many sources establish them. Removing information about his wife receiving his scholarship that cites multiple reliable secondary sources, and only leaving in his own campign website as a ref to state he established the scholarship "in memory of his parents," is pure WP:PROMO and the opposite of WP:DUE. Ramaksoud2000 ^{(Talk to me)} 01:32, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion. (Summoned by bot) The article doesn't otherwise address his family. No need to use the article to take a dig at him about his family. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:01, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose the text "Rose met his wife, Chelsea (née Doss) when she was a student at Tennessee Technological University" because we don't know it to be true. The American Prospect article makes a plausible case that they may have met earlier. If we don't know, we cannot say. Further, it's not actually very relevant to know when they were first in the same room, compared to when they established their mentoring relationship or their romantic one, but I don't hold out much hope of being able to source either of those. Bovlb (talk) 16:45, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

  Would Rose knew his wife, Chelsea (née Doss) when she was a student at Tennessee Technological University work better? That's clearly established, since they were married while she was still attending. grendel|khan 20:56, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

  Bovlb opposes that specific text, so quoting it back and asking if they support isn't going to change their stance. Also, it may not be that they met at Tennessee Tech. There is no way to know for sure, despite a single article from a biased point of view. United States Man (talk) 21:00, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

  Pardon me; that was a copy-paste error, now fixed. I had meant to ask about replacing met with knew. grendel|khan 21:32, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

  The "knew" phrasing sounds a little arch to my ear. I think we can fairly say that they married while she was a student at Tennessee Tech and leave it there. Unless more evidence comes to light, we can't really chart much about their relationship before that, and we shouldn't try to be suggestive. Even if we can place them together in the same room, that doesn't establish any specific level of social interaction. Bovlb (talk) 22:10, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Animalparty's comments in the discussion above:

  And if no reliable sources are highlighting the age difference beyond indicating its existence (a "controversy" that only exists in the Twittersphere), then of course Wikipedia should follow suit: WP:NPOV means articles document the mainstream view(s) in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. Wikipedia doesn't drop little hints, selectively add facts/quotes, nor 'connect the dots' to nudge readers towards inferring a scandal.

  Connormah (talk) 19:10, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

  Note that this comment is no longer true, due to The American Prospect, a mainstream publication, covering the issue. grendel|khan 20:55, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. The American Prospect (a quite partisan outlet) appears to be still be the sole quasi-reliable' piece covering this non-troversy, and it reeks of guilt-by-association and "just asking questions" to stir up drama and score political points. The writers place Rose's marriage in context of things outside of relevance to Rose's biography that would be inappropriate to mention here: the "Don't Say Gay bill" (a Florida law, which Rose has no power to vote on), Tennessee state legislation (which Rose cannot vote on), gay teachers in Texas, QAnon dogwhistles, etc. The article all but accuses Rose of outright grooming, or worse. --Animalparty! (talk) 23:56, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Specifically calling out their ages seems somewhat redundant when birth dates are already available.Writethisway (talk) 18:56, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I just removed this change, which brings in the ages (contra the RFC above), and claims they met when 17 with the reference [2] which does not substantiate it. Bovlb (talk) 19:14, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Number of children

In the quick facts section, it says Children: 3

In the personal section it says he lives with his two sons. Now I suppose he may also live with his one daughter or there may be another explanation but it appears that it’s either 2 or 3 and the article should be updated to confirm that if possible. Creges (talk) 08:59, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

The question of 2 children vs 3 children seems to be being used as a proxy discussion for the conservative question of "when does life begin." He and his wife have two children. Additionally, she had a pregnancy that did not come to full term. This is not the same thing as having two children as well as a third child who died.

Citation: on Rose's official website it says "He and Chelsea believe they were given their biggest blessing the day their first child, Guy, was born. Tragically, the Roses lost their expected son, Mack Wayne Rose, in November 2019 due to an unexpected complication during pregnancy. Mack is buried on the Rose Farm. The family is now blessed with a third son, Samuel "Sam" Jeffery Rose, born in March of 2021." Jbisker (talk) 15:29, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Recent coverage

Recent coverage of his floor speech during which his son made faces at the camera has reignited social media discussion about when and how he met his wife. The Daily Mail reports that they "seemingly met when she was in high school", but they stop short of making an outright claim and it seems to be based on the same reported facts that we considered two years ago, so I don't think there's anything new here. Bovlb (talk) 19:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)