Talk:John Martyn/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about John Martyn. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Date of birth

'The Great Rock Discography' by Martin C. Strong (5th edition) [Mojo Books/Canongate 2000] has Martyn's date of birth as 28th June 1948 and place of birth as Glasgow. Aarkangel 20:04, 18 February 2006

yep. but its wrong though sadlySamgb 09:18, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

English guitarist?

I frequently get pissed of with some of Wikipedia's narrow categorisations (eg English guitarists, rather than British guitarists). This seems especially unhelpful when applied to someone like John Martyn. We are left with an English guitarist with a Glaswegian sense of humour! I'm not sure what is supposed to define him as english: if it is being born in England, then Tony Blair is Scottish and Spike Milligan was Indian. I suggest re-categorising him as a British guitarist (and singer). Any other views? Bluewave 08:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Dead right bluewave go for it. he should be classed as British as attested by the BBC documentary screened again last friday. His accent proceeded to waver between Surrey and Glasgow throughout. Very strange!Samgb 09:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

OK - changed! British he is. Bluewave 09:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Scotland based?

Aforementioned BBC documentary (which was excellent!) clearly showed John living in Ireland. I got the impresssion that he has been there for some time......

--twitter 12:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think "Scotland based" reflects someone trying to struggle with the problems of national identity in the UK! There seems to be a marked reluctance to describe people as British (because it sounds old-fashioned??) Martyn can appear to be very Scottish but there is also a wikipedian reluctance to call people Scottish if they were not born in Scotland. In fact there is a strong wikipedian tendency to ascribe a nationality (or pseudo-nationality) based only on where people are born. Again, I would prefer "British" which is presumably Martyn's true nationality, rather than "Scotland based" which is highly misleading. Bluewave 12:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that its the growth in Nationalism that leads people to be described as English or Scottish but British seems the best fit to describe someone like John (and even Tony Blair!). --twitter 13:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Shameless Plug?

including a recent collaboration with UltanJohn on a soon to be released (September '06) EP called 'Really Gone. This may or may not be true. The Ultan John website makes no claims for a collaboration with John Martyn (John isn't even mentioned). But even if true it doesn't add much to a biography of John Martyn. When you consider the stature of artists that he has worked with but who aren't mentioned (Eric Clapton, Dave Gilmour, Paul Kossoff, Richard Thompson, Steve Winwood etc) it seems odd to refer to someone who is largely unknown. This just looks like a plug for a new single by Ultan John. I recommend that it be deleted.--twitter 09:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why its a shameless plug - its a relevant addition to the biography as it is an update on a project that is currently being worked on by John Martyn and UltanJohn.--[Irksome]

But there is NO MENTION of any collaboration on that Ultan John link and there is no evidence of any joint project as far as I can tell. The Ultan John website does mention the Snow Patrol drummer but if this was a real story then surely John Martyn would have been referred to on there? If you can cite a reference for this collaboration then that may be different.--twitter 08:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

As discussed privately the addition to the biog has been reverted to include details of Really Gone & I added a link to John Martyns own website ----Irksome 19:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect attributation

Seen John listed as one of the Martyn family of Galway. Removed him from the list as I know of no evidence of this, but would be delighted to be suprised. Cheers. Fergananim 13:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Personal life

Why is there no mention of John's alcoholism in the article ? And why is the break-up of his marriage to Beverly Martyn not addressed ? and finally, it might help to mention that their break-up is the subject matter of the album Grace and Danger. E.Dunlea 194.176.105.35 13:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Presumably because no-one, to date has the facts about those things and the verifiable sources to back it up. So feel free to improve the article if you can add some of that detail. Bluewave 13:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

...and curiously the incident in which he was nailed down under a rug, whilst drunk, appears in the Danny Thompson article, but not here! Bluewave 14:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Edits of 2008-01-31

Dear 82.25.26.122, thanks for your efforts on the John Martyn article. It certainly needs some improvement and is not really up to date. Alas you didn't log in as a user, else I would have made my comments on your talk page.

I must say that I have problems with some of your edits:

the Intro now is a somewhat cluttered amalgamation of facts and personal opinion. The intro should give a short access to the person in a neutral, factual style. Everything else should follow in the body of the article, like his work with other artists, details of his work (I personally know him because of his acoustic guitar playing, not his echoplex) or his alcohol problems (which are not really adressed in the text, btw.). He's a (famous) british singer/songwriter and guitarist. Period.
Early Life is slightly short and citations are missing, but a good idea. But as it is the top section of the following ones, it should read something like Biography
you linked a lot of years without obvious relevance to the subject (see Manual of Style on this topic, third paragraph), and some other links do not really work like you presumably intended (click on Island, you'll see what I mean)
BBC documentary, Johnny Too Bad doesn't really merit an own section, it just goes well with 1990's and beyond
Please see Wikipedia:Embedded citations about using external links (you're not the only one in this article). They should be in the references section too.
Notable instruments in the info box means just that. He's a guitarist, so it's not surprising he plays one. This item means notable

Finally you should use the Show preview button, else you clutter the articles version history unneccessarily.

Beg your pardon to be so explicit. I reverted the article to its state before your edits and then added some of them back into the text. I changed the inline weblinks to references too. Please don't think your edits are not welcome, I explained my points for partly reverting your edits. Let's discuss the way to proceed from here. --Jo (talk) 16:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC), Jo (talk) 18:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Edits 31Jan08

Me to! I really don't like the edits that have been carried out here. This page has been spolied in my view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paddington Hard Stare (talk • contribs) 22:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Please be more specific!--Jo (talk) 23:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Edits

I have no interest in an 'edits war'. If this is the way you want this article to be, then OK.

But I liked my intro, I thought it gave an unfamiliar reader an idea of the standing John Martyn is held in. The man on the street hasn't heard of him, but he has heard of Eric Clapton, Phil Collins, Dave Gilmour. Your article reads '1990's and beyond -...Over the years he has performed with...' That's not 1990's, is it?

The closest that intro got to 'personal opinion' was his years of erratic drunken behaviour, which have been well documented. Your intro reads 'He grew up in Glasgow and attended Shawlands Academy' and then, three sentences later, 'His strongest ties are in Glasgow, and he attended Shawlands Academy there.' Seamless.

It seems pointless to argue over whether the main body of text should be headed 'Career' or 'Biography', because it's both. I personally would like to see it as 'Career' because it seems to deal mostly with his albums. I intended to put a section in headed 'Personal life' which would talk about his marriages, his children and his alcohol abuse, very soon after I made the edits.

'Early Life' was short because his career started at 17. I wanted to split the article up into smaller chunks, with accessible headings, because I thought that that was what was needed; the old one was excessively bland and, to anyone but a hardy John Martyn fan, unreadable.

I see absolutely no reason to cut off his entire 'Discography' section. That has ALWAYS been there, until you made your edits. Same with 'External Links', which is admittedly a bit unwieldy.

Anyway I will try to make some compromised changes. If I sound bitter, that's because I am; especially to whoever said I had 'spoiled' the article. Nevertheless, I appreciate your diplomacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.25.26.122 (talk) 01:31, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Good you commented! I did omit a closing ref-tag in my last edit, so the whole Discography + External Links weren't displayed (I didn't delete them). I fixed that bit, thanks for the heads up.

I think you sort of misinterpreted my actions. I didn't write the article, I don't want this article to be of any particular content (except good, concise and easy to read), and my actions were lead by the way you performed your edits (see my first comments on them). Most of the points you mention here hit their mark, and you should work them into the text. It would be a good idea to give a hint of your intentions on the talk page, and not leave the article dangling in an intermediate state. The section about his personal life is a good idea, but pay attention to provide reliable sources. Smaller chunks is a good idea, too.

Don't be bitter about that comment, perhaps it wasn't specifically directed at you. That's the reason I asked for being more specific, perhaps there's a valuable input. Keep on editing, and thanks for your equally diplomatic answer (I really tried to be, too, and gave my comment a 2. and 3. thought).--Jo (talk) 02:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Move to Ireland

How long had he been in Ireland? Where did he live in later life, and where did he die - the BBC report in the References section only states 'a hospital in Ireland'. Nietzsche 2 (talk) 20:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Glasgow

The Early life subsection states that 'his strongest ties were in Glasgow', yet doesn't back that up with information or refs. How long did he live in Glasgow, and what exactly were his ties to that city? Did many of his family members live there? Did he have Scottish ancestry? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 20:46, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

May you never, lay your head down without a hand to hold, bye bye...see you next time around xxx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.248.119 (talk) 15:08, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Keane?

The article section headed "Death" includes the following vague statement: "English rock band Keane sang a Martyn song." It gives a reference which makes no specific mention of Keane, though it possibly did at the time: now, it doesn't even link directly to a John Martyn obituary, but to "search results" for this. I am not aware of Keane having performed a John Martyn song, though I would be delighted if it's true, but there is no mention of such a thing on Keane's website or forum, nor on YouTube, and I'm inclined to think we could find something from at least one of those sources if it had actually happened. I think this may have been a misunderstanding: Keane's lead singer Tom Chaplin did say a few words in tribute to John Martyn at Keane's Glasgow concert on the day he died, so perhaps this has been mentioned in news coverage but ambiguously worded so someone's thought that Keane's tribute was a performance of one of his songs? I've marked it as needing a citation, but if none is forthcoming I'll remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Contains Mild Peril (talk • contribs) 15:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The Snooo Tour

Does anyone lay claim to still owning and wearing one of the "Snooo" T-shirts that could be bought along with a CD-EP during John's Snooo Tour back in the 1990's?

I'm still wearing mine, as the pic on my blog shows!! I often use it to start conversations about whose picture is on it and thus still spread awareness of John's wonderful musical legacy.

My blog is here: [1]

And the pic there along with the posting "Concerning John Martyn" is proof positive that I still wear that T-shirt. Honorary Greek (talk) 22:55, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I Don't Wanna Know

I'm surprised this doesn't mention his song I Don't Wanna Know About Evil, which was covered by Santana, Dr. John and others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.34.153 (talk) 23:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Beverly Martyn and Stormbringer!

The article currently states

This sound was first apparent on Stormbringer! in 1970, which was written and performed by both John and Beverley Martyn, his then wife, previously recording solo as Beverley Kutner working with artistes such as Nick Drake and Jimmy Page.

This sort of sounds as though recording of the Stormbringer! album began as a Beverly Kutner solo album involving Nick Drake and Jimmy Page then became a John and Beverly Martyn album. Am I right in thinking this is not what was meant? I didn't want to change it without checking. I had a look at the Stormbringer! article and it appears that it was originally planned as a Beverly Martyn solo album but did not involve Nick Drake or Jimmy Page (who had previously worked with Beverly Kutner). Contains Mild Peril (talk) 20:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Since nobody's replied, I've changed it to "his then wife who had previously recorded solo as Beverley Kutner and had worked with artistes such as Nick Drake and Jimmy Page." Contains Mild Peril (talk) 23:59, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:John Martyn/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Relatively comprehensive, but lacks sources and many stubb paragraphs. + Ceoil 22:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 22:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 15:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)