Talk:John Elefante

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Biography: Musicians

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians (assessed as Low-importance).

Christianity Low‑importance

	Christianity portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Christian music Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christian music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christian music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Christian musicWikipedia:WikiProject Christian musicTemplate:WikiProject Christian musicChristian music articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	It is requested that an image of this person be included in this article to improve its quality.

Progressive Rock Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Progressive Rock, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Progressive rock on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Progressive RockWikipedia:WikiProject Progressive RockTemplate:WikiProject Progressive RockProgressive rock articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Notability?

I'm removing the notability tag. Here are just two of the Wikipedia criteria for notability, and John Elefante qualifies on both counts:

* Has had a Top 100 hit on any national music chart, in a large or medium-sized country

Vocals on "Play the Game Tonight" by Kansas, 1982 and "Fight Fire With Fire" by Kansas, 1983; both of them top 100 hits. I believe "Play the Game Tonight" was even top 10.

* Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable)

Vocals on Vinyl Confessions (1982) and Drastic Measures (1983) by Kansas. Produced several albums by Petra.

He's notable enough for Wikipedia. Kaibabsquirrel 2 July 2005 04:25 (UTC)

Organize

Ouch! It hurts my eyes. Organize the article into sections, with a clear lead. -- PEPSI2786^talk 08:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great idea - will do. I'm new at Wikipedia; the number and scope of guidelines is a taking some time to digest. I'm impressed with the rigor of the system. -- Bill G. Evans^talk 016:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you have added sections, but the titles are a little too long. Make them more concise. You may want to organize like this- Early Years and Musical Career and separate the Musical Career section into smaller mini-sections.And ADD IN TEXT CITATIONS so readers will know where you get your info from. Also the last section needs to be rearranged or taken out because it sounds like you are encouarging people to buy his new album; it just doesn't sound like what should be in an encyclopedia article. Other than that it looks like a good article.Ltwin (talk) 20:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Veracity

Thanks for your work, especially the grammar corrections. I hear you on the section titles; I'll change that. I will certainly add citations…it's just a lot of work and I'm getting to it. Please don't delete them until I at least have a change. My information comes from these primary sources: The All Music Guide, Soundscan, John, Kerry Livgren, Bill Hammell (who runs the Elefante fan site), and myself. (I represent John and Kerry professionally.) There's a lot I don't know about citations, though, and I've been reading the guidelines. For example, can I cite other Wikipedia articles? That sounds redundant. Can I cite John and Kerry? Can I cite myself as their representative? For example, the item about being the highest grossing band that year comes from the band itself, and proprietary documents from CBS that I cannot cite. Soundscan isn't a good source for the number of copies sold because it's under (sometimes way under) the actual number. Some aspects of someone's career are impossible to disambiguate. I would like to cite the All Music Guide, but you need an account to see the information. Can that be cited? I hear you on the editorial stuff. I absolutely do not want to encourage people to buy anything from John based on the Wiki page. You can see I said nothing editorial about any of the albums he has worked on; I didn't even consider doing so. In terms of the new albums, I could not encourage people to buy them because they won't be out for a long time. (In the case of the full album, a very long time.) There's nothing even approaching release dates. The reason I talk about the later album as being aenigmatic is because I am bound by confidentiality to not discuss the genre of the album, or anything about it. What I wrote is actually an accurate description. I will make the changes that people feel is appropriate, though. When the albums approach release, I will change the language to being neutral; for one thing, I'll be able to say exactly what's on the albums. I would ask, though (not that I can) that people refrain from editing the last paragraph, because there is no public knowledge regarding those albums. I do have sources for them, though; namely John and myself (assuming I can use them). As I said, though, I will certainly follow people's recommendations regarding it. I'm not trying to control anything - just keep it accurate.-- Bill G. Evans^talk 014:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well I don't know if it's acceptable to cite another wikipage, you might want to ask someone else about that. However, I hear you say that you represent John and that some of the information is from personal knowledge. Wikipedia has a policy against posting personal research, but not knowing exactly how you got the info or what it is I myself cannot make a judgement on what is or what is acceptable. Just try to get the most important facts in the article with verafiable sources that readers can check for themselves so the article can have the best credibility. I think that's why personal research is discouraged, as it doesn't give the average reader the chance to see the source for themselves. But I wouldn't worry about people taking too much uncited material out if they know the editor is trying to cite his sources.Ltwin (talk) 20:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bill, you cannot cite yourself as a source. It's against the rules, and you've turned this into PR material. It's not appropriate for WP. 98.194.39.86 (talk) 05:32, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discography

Ltwin, I changed the discography work you did simply to make the whole section shorter, and uniform with his larger discography.-- Bill G. Evans^talk 019:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Verification

There's a large banner above the article, titled "This article needs additional citations for verification." I've added citations for all the references that were flagged. Who decides if that banner should go? Bill G. Evans (talk) 18:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)Bill G. Evans[reply]

OK, I see where that is. I'm removing because (as above) I've added citations for all the references that have been flagged. One thing I'm not sure about is how to indicate that many facts are referenced by the same source (e.g. Billboard charts). Also, please note that I'm not linking to specific documents in the Billboard charts, NARAS, etc. In some instances, there is no specific document that exists any more. If anyone would like to work on this, please do. Bill G. Evans (talk) 18:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)Bill G. Evans[reply]

Messages

Wikipedia is telling me I have messages. I have no idea how to check them. I've you've sent them, I'm not ignoring you. One thing I noticed is that Wikipedia had an old, non-functioning email address for me. That's been fixed. Bill G. Evans (talk) 18:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)Bill G. Evans[reply]

Removal of All Videos

Sfan00 IMG, I understand your concern regarding copyright. I professionally represent both Mr. Elefante and Kerry Livgren from KANSAS; the videos are OK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill G. Evans (talk • contribs) 18:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So now we understand more clearly how this PR piece came to be. It's NOT good. 98.194.39.86 (talk) 05:28, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality

I see serious issue with the fact that this article is written in whole by the subject's PR person, Bill G Evans of Bill Evans Media. It explains why this thing reads more like a draft for his first book then a wiki article. Way too much glowing peacock speak and little personal tidbits that don't belong in here, like how in 2006 the subject needed to take a break, he need time to breathe. This stuff doesn't belong in a wiki article. Status4 (talk) 02:46, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree completely. This reads like a PR Man's guide to The Subject Of This Article. I won't repeat his name, because frankly, it is seen WAY too many times here and in some of the Kansas song articles. There is nothing neutral about this article at all. It was clearly written by someone who adores this man, and can't say enough good about him. Even though this is supposed to be an encyclopedia. I came here on a whim, and this article nearly took me to the Point of No Return. Point of Nausea, I should say. Someone needs to fix this.

I did not know even there was a "John Elefante Period" re: the band Kansas. I guess you learn something every day. Wow. 98.194.39.86 (talk) 05:27, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He co-wrote and sang the No. 4 Billboard Mainstream Rock hit, "Play the Game Tonight" ?

. I'm wondering if he did co-write the song "Play the Game Tonight", because the WP linked article DOES NOT list him as one of the writers. He either was or was not credited as a writer, and if not - that statement / claim needs to be removed from this article. 98.194.39.86 (talk) 05:41, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, I'm editing that statement because according to Sony / ATV Music Publishing, LLC he is NOT a co-author of that song. Songwriters: DANNY FLOWER, KERRY LIVGREN, KERRY A LIVGREN, PHIL EHART, RICHARD JOHN WILLIAMS, ROBERT AIMES FRAZIER 98.194.39.86 (talk) 05:41, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]