Talk:John Carroll (priest)

Disambiguation

I'd like to move this to "John Carroll (priest)" or similar, and make "John Carroll" the disambiguation page. He doesn't seem an obviously default holder of this very common name - certainly not outside the US. Readers looking for "John Carroll University" will be typing "University" anyway. JackyR 02:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Umm i dont know about that. Of the John Carrolls that currently on the disambiguation, i would have to say this one is the most notable, even outside of the united states. Also all of them with the exeption of one are americans. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but I have a 19th century UK astronomer to add - hence the interest. And I was brought up Catholic in the UK and have never heard of John Carroll (except the one I knew in person...). JackyR 12:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Humm intresting, well now that i think about it, i don't see it being an major issue. I have no problem with it. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Jolly good. I'll give it a little longer, in case anyone else wants to chip in, and then move it. I'd use "(priest)" over "(bishop)", cos we have ""poitician" not "prime minister", etc. JackyR 20:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good.
--Boothy443 | trácht ar 08:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

My justifications for both broad terms:

1. Both politicians and priests have a body of documentation of their early, less prominent careers, created before their bright futures are assured and thus not mentioning them as cardinal or senator. Altho most readers will know of the late career, those who have read from only the early paper trail (without catching the inevitability of the brilliant career) shouldn't, in order to find the bio, have to overcome their appropriate presumption that the moderately notable don't later become markedly notable (which is, obviously, a statistically good guide). Going from the lower levels of the clergy dodge to higher ones does generate disproportionately greater percentage increases in notability, compared to levels in politics, but IMO the principle still applies.
2. The narrower the term, the more users will be vague on or ignorant of its meaning. Probably neither "bishop" or "priest" is likely to be obscure to en:-WP users, but even so, in LoPbN, i use "religious leader" for everything from deacon on up, including saints, and in another dimension, including missionaries, preachers, pastors, moderators, superintendents, teachers, rabbis, stylites, anchorites, rishis, arahants, yogis, ayatollahs, muzzeins, bonzes, mullahs, etc., etc. I'd avoid "(religious leader)" as a dab'g phrase, to avoid adding a word too many to titles, but the Dab'g term can be their context, not always just what they are, so even John Carroll (religion) would not be an outrageous choice.

--Jerzy•t 18:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

_ _ I couldn't find yr astronomer, could he be the 20th-century one i added to the Dab? I make the cleric more notable than him, but equal Dab does not require anything near equality of notability.

_ _ On the other hand, if the cleric isn't going to own the un-dabbed title, he can't own the rdr either. I moved the Dab to John Carroll, and removed the ToP Dab in John Carroll (priest), accordingly; if someone turns out to deserve the undabbed title, putting the Dab back will be a no-admin-needed move.
--Jerzy•t 18:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Jerzy, you wonderful, wonderful person! I finished the "What lks here" fixes late last night, and was still trying to think of whom to ask to fix the dab page; when Lo! you've done it without being asked. You are my complete hero! (Even if I'm sometimes not sure what you're on about!)

The astronomer is indeed Sir John C - why did I think he was C19th? I created all those Gresham Professor pages, and sometime between now and the end of the 21 century will tackle the individual articles. Completely agree that the cleric is more notable, relatively, but not the overwhelming notability required to displace a dab page (like John Kennedy). JackyR 21:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)