Talk:Joe Camel

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dedoton4. Peer reviewers: Yalie123.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:47, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Joe Chemo

@PsychTime12: I received your email, but it is more acceptable to discuss content on the article's talk page, so it is a public record and other editors can participate in the conversation. I do not own the article. My email is there more for personal requests, or sensitive or private matters. I made some changes to your edits. There were a few issues I had with it:

• The wording made it sounds like Joe Chemo ads were published as advertisements in The New York Times and Adweek and other publications but we don't have reliable sources corroborating this. Adweek is an advertising trade publication and the NYT article was using the advertisement as a point of discussion in an article about Adbusters in 2012. None of the sources stated that Joe Chemo was published as an advertisement in other magazines.
• Generally trimmed the section. All mentions of the character I could find in reliable sources are brief and usually in a larger article about Adbusters or anti-smoking in general. Removed the personal stuff about Plous and put more emphasis on Adbusters as creating the subvert, as that's how sources describe it.
• Remove the JoeChemo.org stuff. The website is still linked at the bottom of the article. My issue with it is a self-published source claiming that Joe Chemo appeared in all these magazines, billboards, etc. but none of this is mentioned by any third-party. Not saying the website is lying, but it gives the impression of a much larger campaign than anyone else has described it as.

TarkusAB^talk/contrib 04:15, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Joe Camel/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien (talk · contribs) 15:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll have a review posted some time today or tomorrow. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

TarkusAB, pretty good overall, but a few problems that need to be addressed before this can be considered a GA. The first is whether this article covers every major aspect of the Joe Camel character. After reading it, I know a lot about the controversy surrounding it, but I still don't know too much about Camel's marketing, which was the whole point of this character. The second is the use of primary sources. There's usually some leeway with this at GA, but it's enough of an issue here that it starts to create original research and POV issues. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:14, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Well-written

Lead:

• Is this character actually called "Old Joe"? I get the impression that the previous mascot was called Old Joe, not this one.

  The JAMA abstrat [1] and WaPo article [2] both refer to the contemporary Joe Camel cartoon as "Old Joe". Kind of contrary, NYT said that the inspiration behind Joe Camel was "Old Joe", the camel that appears on the cigarette packs. [3] My impression is that Old Joe was always the name of the original camel on the cigarette packs, and some sources by point of relation, would call the new 80s artwork Old Joe as well. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:41, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Description:

• Some critics claimed Joe's nose was intentionally drawn in a phallic fashion, as to suggest that smoking was a verile pursuit – I'm not saying that this can't be included in the article at all, but it feels undue to list it among his basic traits. I suggest moving it to the bottom of this section. Also, avoid "claimed", as it implicitly casts doubt.
•  Done essentially appearing as a muscular humanoid – "essentially" can be lost here. Either it does or it doesn't.
•  Done Although television advertisements for cigarettes were outlawed in the United States – Was this before or after Joe Camel was created?
•  Done would often depict – "often depicted" is more concise.
•  Done RJR also ran promotions – RJR is defined in the lead and again in the next section. This would be a better place to define it in the body. For clarity, maybe "parent company R. J. Reynolds (RJR) also ran promotions"

History:

•  Done Why is the original camel drawing's name given the second time it is mentioned? Would it make more sense to say "featuring a plain camel drawing, known as 'Old Joe', on the package"
•  Done However, the American version – "However" can be removed without changing the meaning.
• Salisbury claimed that RJR would reject – Avoid "claimed". Also, "rejected" is more concise.
•  Done However, much of Mangini's prosecution was based on the review of RJR internal documents to assess company intent rather than reviewing market data. – The wording here casts doubt on her methodology rather than simply describing it.
• claiming only the federal government – It doesn't cast doubt the same way as the others, but "claiming" still isn't quite the right word here.
•  Done Was Joe Chemo created by Adbusters or by Scott Plous? The article should state this clearly.

  Plous presented the concept to Adbusters, who made it a reality. Fixed. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:35, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Legacy: No issues.

Verifiable with no original research

• The sources appear generally reliable, but the article relies overwhelmingly on primary sources. Coverage from 1998 to today is far more valuable, as it allows for better analysis and puts the information in context. I searched for recent Joe Camel articles on Google Scholar, and there are a bunch of good sources if you're interested in expanding the article.
• In line with that, it's best to avoid using sources to write about themselves. Practically the entire section about the FTC complaint is cited to the FTC complaint itself. It would be preferable to have sources that report on it and analyze it rather than having us try to analyze them directly. Looking for more secondary sources would greatly benefit the article. The best option is to find books and scholarly articles that analyze the events in retrospect. Failing that, it's still better to cite news articles that describe the events rather than citing the research or the FTC release directly.
•  Done This is just a cosmetic thing and doesn't really matter, but generally, if multiple sentences in a row are supported by the same source, then you can just have a single citation at the end of the last sentence.

Spot checks:

• Elliott (1991) – Good. This source also provides a really good description of the approach to marketing as well as further description of Joe Camel's design. That's the sort of thing that should be included in the article.
•  Done Dubin (1996) – Good except it doesn't support old action and adventure films. It only supports action films, and that he specifically geared it to those of the 1940s might also be relevant.
• Warren (1994) – Good.

Broad in its coverage

There are a few areas where this article doesn't cover everything that it probably should.

• Were there any notable events or approaches involving the Joe Camel advertising campaign? The history section does a good job covering the controversy around the character, but it doesn't cover much about the advertising itself. It seems to jump from his creation to his Americanization to the studies to the FTC. How was he used in between these events?
• The article should probably have more information about his design and about how that fed into its marketing. It seems this aspect is neglected in favor of the controversy. The sources that I looked at definitely provide some information about this.
• What were some of the other long term effects of Joe Camel's legacy and the legal issues that surrounded the character? Did his existence lead to new regulations? Did it change Camel's marketing strategy or the tobacco industry more broadly?
•  Done This probably isn't essential, but a little more background about Camel's marketing leading up to the creation of Joe Camel might be helpful for context. The article briefly mentions a "plain camel" adorning the original release in 1913, but it would be good to have some (very brief) information about the marketing between 1913 and 1974.

Neutral

• This is mentioned above, but be careful about how the arguments are presented so as not to suggest that one side was correct or incorrect. My impression of the article is that it slightly favors critics of the study, even if it's not done intentionally.
• exposing children to the dangers of smoking – Even if this was the FTC's stated position, it should be clear that this is what the FTC is alleging. Right now it reads like the article is taking a position on "the dangers of smoking".

  I reworded to "exposing children to smoking" which is objective TarkusAB^talk/contrib 23:07, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

• Jack Calfee's analysis appears to have been published through the American Enterprise Institute, which is a partisan think tank. Any use of this source should be scrutinized, and it should be attributed to Calfee and/or the AEI. Claims made by this source should not be accepted at face value.

  Out of an abundance of caution, I removed the source from the article. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 23:07, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Stable

No recent disputes.

Illustrated

Both images have a valid non-free use rationale, though it wouldn't hurt to flesh out the details at File:JoeCamel.jpg

Improved the rationale. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:51, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien: Thank you for the detailed review. This will take some work. I will work on this during this week/weekend and will ping you when complete. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 18:28, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

TarkusAB, checking in to see where we're at since we've reached the recommended seven days for an article hold. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:58, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien: I have addressed many of the concerns, but the remaining "heavy lifting" requires analysis of more sources. I took a look at the link of sources you gave but the overwhelming majority are behind paywalls. I did find two that I think will help address your concerns. Can I have one more week to implement? Because they are rather long. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 23:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, it's no rush. I just wanted to know what the plan was at this point. You probably have access to the Wikipedia Library, which grants access to a lot of academic sources and databases. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:37, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Wow, I was aware of the library but didn't know it was so easy to access, browse, and download articles! I will certainly look more closely at this this week! Thank you TarkusAB^talk/contrib 00:10, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Will work on this tonight. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

TarkusAB, I see you made some additions. Is it ready for another look, or did you want to add more in the next few days? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

A little more time please! I will finish this weekend! TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien: Hi, I'm ready for you to take another look. I think I addressed all the points. One thing I think I don't know what to do with is the use of the word "claimed" in some cases. To your point, I don't want the article to take sides, and since there have been a lot of lies on both sides of the aisle, I use the word "claimed" so the reader can draw their own conclusions. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 03:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Revised article review

TarkusAB I've looked over the article again.

•  Done The article does need to comply with MOS:WTW before it can pass, including MOS:CLAIM in particular. "Said" can pretty much always substitute "claimed", and "argued" sometimes work as well.
•  Done The character creation section has some statements from Salisbury about the marketing to children, but they feel out of place because that aspect hasn't been explored yet. I suggest moving them down lower in the article, maybe to the JAMA studies section.
•  Done Joe expressive eyerbrows – Is this a typo?
•  Done The Mangini lawsuit section is only one paragraph. It might be better to merge it with the JAMA studies section per MOS:PARA.
•  Done Do any sources state on what grounds Mangini brought the lawsuit? Was she representing anyone, or was it just as a concerned citizen?
•  Done but in 1994 decided not to act after three of five commissioners voted not to act – This uses "not to act" twice in a row.
•  Done briefly drove a spike of interest – "increased interest" is simpler.
•  Done It might be worth combining the short paragraphs in the legacy section.

Once these are addressed, that should be it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien: OK I did the things you listed off. Let me know if there are any other issues with the article, or parts that need expansion. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 04:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Coyote?

I recall there being an artist who claimed that Joe Camel infringed on his "Coyote" character but searching for this has not yielded any of the articles about this from the late 1980s. Help? 136.33.143.86 (talk) 03:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Update: Markus Pierson — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.33.143.86 (talk) 03:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)