Talk:Jock Butterfield

CorenSearchBot

The CorenSearchBot is in error.--Jeff79 (talk) 21:59, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Provincial Stats

Hi guys, I moved the provincial stats from the "representative" section to the "club" section because that is what I think would be regarded as "first grade" rugby league in NZ. This has been the way most other NZ infoboxes have been done as statistics for city football will, I don't think, ever be available. Plus if it was included in "representative" then it would stand to reason that the Auckland NSW Cup team, the Auckland Vulcans, and the Canterbury Bulls also be included there as they are selected in that way with players also belonging to an ARL club. And I think we can all agree that that would be silly? IMO first grade football in NZ is national provincial competitions or other similar competitions like the Bartercard Cup or the Lion Red Cup not the competitions run by the Auckland Rugby League, Wellington Rugby League and the like. Mattlore (talk) 00:19, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

All well and good if you're talking about a present-day of even 1990s player. But Butterfield is from another era. The biography I took that info from said explicitly he played for the Brunner Rugby League Club and also represented West Coast. It was my understanding that within Canterbury and West Coast (which are featured in other wikipedia articles as "regions") were clubs, from which players were selected for rep footy. I'm not saying this should apply for today's players, but it should for those of bygone eras, just as footballers who played for NSW country clubs and were selected for representative games have it included in their infoboxes. It's my understanding that the Auckland Warriors became New Zealand's top level club upon their introduction in 1995 and not before that (just as the Broncos and Knights did in 1988). Canterbury and West Coast just aren't clubs, so putting them in club footy (when we do have the name of the actual club he played for) is simply inaccurate right?--Jeff79 (talk) 07:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Right, I'm not disputing that he played for the club(s) - merely that they should be considered "first grade" and therefore warrant a mention in the infobox. I also don't really see how we could apply it to past eras but not now, I mean the Auckland Vulcans are a representative side because they choose the best players from the ARL clubs + Warriors to play each week in the NSW Cup - I just don't think they should be listed as such. While rugby union is set up in NZ the same way rugby league is/was teams such as "Canterbury" are usually listed under clubs (George Nepia) rather than the actual club they grew up with. Perhaps we need to consider adding a "Provincial/State sides" field like RU has (Zinzan Brooke) rather than just simply "club" and "representative". The infobox isn't there to list each and every club a player plays for (which is why we don't list junior clubs for current players) but only the notable ones. Mattlore (talk) 11:02, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

None of that changes the fact that in the 1950s and 60s, Butterfield's club was top-level. The primary test for this being the fact that players could be selected to represent their country from its ranks. More importantly though, the headings are "Club" and "Representative", which to me make it pretty clear-cut. There's really no need to mention the present day situation in this discussion, as clearly the rugby league landscape in New Zealand has changed a great deal. Comparisons should be drawn with players of the same era, e.g. Des White whose infobox has, quite rightly, 'Ponsonby' listed under club, rather than 'Auckland Rugby League' or Brian Davies who has 'Brothers' listed rather than 'Brisbane Rugby League'.--Jeff79 (talk) 11:42, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I do see where your coming from, just previously I'd been erring on the side of including less clubs rather than as many as possible in the infobox. When would you consider the club competitions in New Zealand to stop being first grade - 1995? Mattlore (talk) 21:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah. It's the best for being consistent with the treatment of Australian club comps. I'm not certain, but I daresay that post 1995 no more players were selected from a New Zealand domestic comp to represent the Kiwis, so the ARL displaced NZ's League's as the top-level club comp. This mirrors the treatment of BRL and NSWRL with the introduction of the Broncos. There's more detail about my stance on infobox footy stats on my user page. I'm certainly not an advocate of including non-top-level club football and you'll probably recall that I'd argued "less is more" at the wikiproject. I think what may have prompted you to make the change to this article was seeing the representative footy with West Coast and Canterbury alongside New Zealand. I took that straight from here, imagining that during those years he was playing inter-region representative matches, much like an Australian playing for NSW or QLD. I may be wrong about that though, and maybe I should be reading it as meaning that he played club footy within those regions during those years. But that part I read about representing West Coast made me think there were inter-region matches.--Jeff79 (talk) 00:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

No, you would be right, during this time period he would have probably been playing for his club, his province, the South Island (I think inter-island games were still going on then) and his country. It is just previously I have counted the provincial competition as "first grade" for the purposes of the infobox but I do agree with your arguments so I think I'll slowly change them.

You're also right with the Kiwis - I know tour players were selected for the 1993 team from the provinces (and probably 1994) but since 1995 no one has been, although Logan Swann was selected straight from Reserve Grade in 1996 and in Frank Endacotts book he mentioned he almost had to call up Aaron Whittaker from Canterbury due to injuries on one tour. So I guess in future I'll treat pre-1995 NZ clubs as first grade, with provinces as representative teams. Mattlore (talk) 00:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The one annoyance is that the Lion Red Cup ran from 1994 to 1996 - it would seem odd to include the first year but not the other two in the infobox. I think perhaps including all three years (apart from the Warriors Colts in 1995) is the best idea, thoughts? Mattlore (talk) 00:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

With regard to Logan Swann you mean the ARL's reserve grade? I think with the Lion Red Cup it's fine to include all of a player's time in that comp if it started in 1994 and continued into 95 or 96 for the sake of continuity. This is what's been done with other comps. However if a player started in the Lion Red Cup in 1995 it might have to be re-considered. Although just having a look at some players listed in the article's grand finals there, at least one player (Duane Mann) it seems was selected from his Lion Red Cup side to represent internationally. For me, I wouldn't mind if this comp was included. I imagine big matches or injuries to key players in the Cup would have been reported in New Zealand's mainstream media.--Jeff79 (talk) 08:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Birth

While Jock was brought up in Taylorville he was born in Christchurch. His mother travelled there to have each of her children for medical reasons. Terrasouth (talk) 06:28, 2 December 2019 (UTC)