Talk:Job Entry Subsystem 2/3

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Split or not

JES2 and JES3 should have their own pages. Martin Packer 11:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. This page is just far to short to be split. Wikipedia is not a Wiktionary. Please read Wikipedia:Summary style that guides when should a page be split. --Kubanczyk 11:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I'm late to the party, but this article seems hopelessly jumbled and doesn't have much info on JES3. A reader who didn't know anything about the topic would be hopelessly confused. I think there's a lot of material that could be added for both JESs. Peter Flass (talk) 00:35, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would tend to agree. There are enough differences between JES2 and JES3 that they really ought to be split into separate articles. --kewlgrapes (talk) 04:51, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support. However, I would suggest as a first step changing the name to MVS Job Entry Subsystems and adding these sections:

Common JES functions
JES2
JES3

I'd also suggest adding a JES section to OS/VS1. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 20:00, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a good idea. A little organization would go a long way. Adding more information for each JES would provide additional justification for separating them into individual articles. I'm going to go ahead and remove the tag from the article for now and do some expansion/organization in the coming weeks. -- kewlgrapes (talk, contribs) 21:37, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I noticed that we have a separate article for Houston Automatic Spooling Priority. Just to make things even more confusing, I guess. Surely that article could be merged into this one? -- kewlgrapes (talk, contribs) 07:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Correct names for JES2 precursor, additional name for JES3 precursor, JES3 nomenclature

The precursor to JES2 was HOUSTON AUTOMATIC SPOOLING PRIORITY SYSTEM - II; see IBM (January 1971), Catalog of Programs for IBM System/ 360 Models 25 and above (PDF), pp. 195, 197, GC20-1619-8 and IBM, z/OS V1R9.0 JES2 Introduction, IBM, SA22-7535-06, JES2 is descended from HASP (Houston automatic spooling priority) {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |sectionurl= (help).

While the initial versions of ASP were called Attached Support Processor, the immediate precursor to JES3 was called Asymmetric Multiprocessor. See IBM, IBM System/360 and System/370 Asymmetric Multiprocessing System: General Information Manual, Program Number 360A-CX-15X, GH20-1173.

The terms global and local processor were used in JES3; the corresponding ASP terms were support and main. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 00:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious question

What ever happened to Job Entry Subsystem 1? I woulda thunk computers would be able to count starting at one (or zero)? W Nowicki (talk) 22:48, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JES1, normally referred to as just JES, was a component of OS/VS1 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 20:34, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I just added a sentence to this effect. Peter Flass (talk) 14:14, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interpreter stage: TMI

The current text mentions the Converter but not the Interpreter. JES2 calls the Interpreter in a separate stage and writes the control blocks to SPOOL. JES3 call the Interpreter as part of the Execution stage. Would this be TMI? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk)

In my opinion, the difference is an idiosyncrasy that probably wouldn't be interesting to most readers. Of course, if there are profound implications of the difference (I am not aware of any), then it'd certainly warrant a mention in the article. -- kewlgrapes (talk, contribs) 21:32, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Podcast

A wealth of information in this podcast that could be added to the article. -- kewlgrapes (talk, contribs) 21:28, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wishlist

@Kewlgrapes:

Just jotting down some things that I'd like to see improve with this article.

Need to add inline refs for a lot of unsourced claims
History section is OK, but it'd be nice to include some info about JES2/JES3 in the modern era, e.g. a "Current development" section.
Currently the article is just an intro and history. We should talk about the core features of "a" JES, as well as the features that differentiate JES2 and JES3 - as mentioned above in the merge discussion. These days JES does more than just batch job processing.
I think a section that goes more in-depth on job processing would be useful. Along with that, I'd really like to see some examples such as what a job looks like (JCL), various commands, maybe even screenshots of some panels in SDSF?
We need to establish notability better. Anyone who has used a mainframe knows how important JES2/JES3 are for getting work done, but I think the average person would read this article and think "who cares?" One thing we could do is to mention cases where there have been outages due to JES-related problems. These events tend to get substantial media coverage.
I'd really like to see some pictures/diagrams in the article. Job processing would be good to have a diagram for. It'd be great if we could add some pictures of the various buttons that people used to wear at SHARE to proclaim their allegiance to either of the two JESes. :)

Also, I've basically flooded the article history with various edits - most of them minor formatting/organization stuff. I want to give people a chance to review my changes before I move ahead with any of the above. -- kewlgrapes (talk, contribs) 09:02, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some comments, in no particular order:

There probably should be an article on the MVS SubSystem Interface (SSI), referenced from the MVS JES article.
You should find some useful JES2 and JES3 references in User:Chatul/References#Manuals
The primary JES was used from day one for START and TSO LOGON.
The article should also discuss the Master JES, used by NIP for address spaces that did not run under JES2 control, e.g., the primary JES.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. We should definitely mention the SSI in this article. Not sure if there's enough info/notability for it to have its own article, though. The "MSTR" subsystem is mentioned in the introduction. Is that what you mean by the "Master JES"?

Yes, the subsystem id for the Master JES is MSTR. That's also the id for the master address space. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 13:23, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And thanks for the manual links! Those will come in handy.-- kewlgrapes (talk, contribs) 18:49, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have some relevant manuals on dead trees; should I add them? What about ASP and HASP manuals? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 13:23, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Chatul: I'd be really interested in the ASP/HASP manuals, if you don't mind. -- kewlgrapes (talk, contribs) 05:02, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've added some to User:Chatul/References#Manuals; more on the way. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 17:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the older ASP, HASP, JES2 and JES3 manuals that I've listed in User:Chatul/References#Manuals; you can find JES2 and JES3 manuals for the current z/OS in the z/OS V2R3 Library. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:18, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Modifications to JES2 at CERN

Stumbled upon this document today while looking for some references. Might be some interesting stuff in here to include in the article. If nothing else, it's interesting read. [1] -- kewlgrapes (talk, contribs) 05:02, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]