Talk:Jiu Ge

Text and translation issues

There are some major issues with the "Jiu Ge" text and translation as presented in this article: removing some of the material from the article page and placing it on the talk page as an archive is one solution that suggests itself in this case. Dcattell (talk) 06:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Per the above, I am moving the entire "Text" section here. Although it seems that there are some selected lines and text here that are not unreasonable, the overall effect seems that this section as it stands is confusing and even likely to be misleading in terms of an encyclopedic approach to the section of the Chu Ci which this article should generally represent. I am moving it here, rather than simply deleting it since it does have some inherent interest. Dcattell (talk) 06:37, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Material actually, at least for now, retained in article, though with explanatory notes. Dcattell (talk) 17:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Text

国殇
操吴戈兮披犀甲，车错毂兮短兵接。
旌蔽日兮敌若云，矢交坠兮土争先。

凌余阵兮躐余行，左骖殪兮右刃伤。

霾两轮兮絷四马，援玉枹兮击鸣鼓。
天时懟兮威灵怒，严杀尽兮弃原野。
 
出不入兮往不反，平原忽兮路超远。
带长剑兮挟秦弓，首身离兮心不惩。

诚以勇兮又以武，终刚强兮不可凌。
身既死兮神以灵，魂魄毅兮为鬼雄。

Translation in English

Who translated this?
1. King of the sky (Dong Huang Tai Yi)

1 Strike the Dark Strings
2 Strike Strike
3 the dark strings
4 And reed & zither answer
5 Spirit moves
6 in splendid gear
7 And is the body's splendid shaman
8 through which a god may sing
9 And indeed does sing
10 And strikes and strikes
11 that Darkest Bell
12 ah darkest bell---
13 my body struck
14 with love

2. Lord of Cloud (Mr. in the cloud) (Yun Zhong Jun)

15 Flower-spirit, shaman-child
16 in blaze of brightness dancing
17 Endless as the earth
18 She dances round it
19 As sun
20 As mantic moon
21 in dragon-chariot of sun
22 O endless flight!
23 Part of me climbs to heaven
24 through the four seas & seasons
25 Longing for you

3. Lord of Sun (Mr. East) (Dong Jun)

70 Lord Sun
71 wheels in flight
72 trailing his spirit-garment
73 High over the Nine Hills
74 he handles Yin & Yang
75 male & female
76 shade & sunshine
77 soul & body
78 a Yin for every Yang
79 And gallops into Light
80 I pluck the lovely hemp flower
81 Age creeps on apace
82 Soon all will be over
83 Soon all done all one
84 And fate is fixed in the heart
85 And not to draw nearer
86 is to drift forever
87 further apart

4. Lord of Xiang-river (Mr. Xiang) (Xiang Jun)

50 I build a bride-room
51 underwater
52 roof thatched with lotus
53 courtyard paved with murex
54 At dark dusk I cross
55 to the Western bank
56 Here it was
57 she cast down
58 her thin dress
59 upon the shore
60 Over the white nut grass
61 my eyes wander
62 see only water swirl
63 in the flood rains
64 Someone says my loved one sent for me
65 I gallop my horses
66 over the lotus leaves
67 toward where a dragon waits
68 toward where an elk browses
69 On the Mountain of Nine Doubts

5. Mrs. Xiang (Xiang Fu Ren)

26 She-shaman princess
27 in a stone boat
28 in winged dragon-boat
29 awning of fig-vine
30 sweet flag paddles
31 magnolia rudder
32 Rides to that Island
33 to that Bright Island
34 abode of light
35 Swinging her mesmere lamp
36 her incense burner
37 on a gold chain
38 She drops her thumb-ring in the Sea
39 And turning
40 and turning
41 stretches her body burning
42 toward me
43 (though she told me told me
44 she was not
45 free)
46 And flying dragons sweep her far away
47 from me
48 I gallop my horse in the morning
49 through the lowlands by the river

6. Master of Fate

102 A glow in the sky
103 and soon you'll arise
104 Night pales
105 Day shines forth
106 You ride on thunder wheels
107 cloud banners trailing
108 heave great sighs
109 look back yearning
110 for earth's beauty burning
111 look and linger
112 forget your way
113 I draw a long arrow
114 and shoot Heaven's Wolf
115 then draw me down the Dipper
116 And plunge alone into
117 the White Void

7. Young Master of Fate (Shao Si Ming)

88 Hall full of lovely ones
89 Yet you had eyes for me alone
90 Riding a whirlwind A cloud for a banner
91 Suddenly you came
92 And as suddenly departed
93 And only had eyes for me
94 I bathed with you
95 in the Pool of Heaven
96 In a sunny fold of the hill
97 I dried your hair
98 Now it is I who shout & sing with despair
99 Under a chariot-awning
100 of peacock feathers & halcyon flags
101 You climb again to the Nine Heavens

8. Spirit of mountains (Shan Gui)

135 Mountain Spirit left me alone
136 dark in a bamboo grove
137 Air dark with rain
138 Monkeys twitter again
139 cry all night again
140 And cry and cry
141 all night again
142 Waiting for you
143 I wander and linger
144 turn and turn
145 and turn again---
146 And won't turn back
147 and won't turn back---

9. Count of Rivers (He Bo)

148 Without my beloved
118 With you wandered
119 down rivers and coasts
120 River God
121 in fish-scale boat
122 drawn by dragons
123 with griffin oarsmen
124 With you I wander
125 on the river islands
126 go with you as far
127 as the Southern Shore
128 Dark dusk falling
129 And I too sad
130 to think of returning
131 Eyes only for
132 that farthest shore
133 I lie awake
134 yearning

10. Spirits of warriors

11. End of ritual

Translation missing

above material removed from article (pending clarification/wikification. Dcattell (talk) 06:37, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The reason why I did this is because I am not sure how much time is worth spending on dealing with this unsourced/unreferenced "translation", as much as I personally find it intriguing. It sounds more like a reconstructed version of a shamanic ritual, based on the "Nine Songs"; however, if so, this should be pointed out. (I tried a brief Google search on the text -- at least there does not appear to be any obvious copyright problem.) Simply restoring the material and in a context which claims to be a "translation" is simply to perpetuate factual inaccuracies, the most obvious being the verse orders. The quoted Chinese "text" is not the text of the "Nine Songs", as it might appear by being in a section called text. It appears to be a Simplified Chinese version of "國殤" (Guo Shang), but I haven't taken the time to verify its accuracy, nor does it have an obvious relevance to the translated text section (which may upon examination be accurate enough as far as it goes -- but this would be original research). Dcattell (talk) 21:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Page history

A brief examination of the page history of Jiu Ge yields the following:

• It appears that the "translation" was provided on 6 November 2007, by anonymous IP user 128.214.205.63 (last active 4 May 2010, at least in terms of the IP address). (Also see: User talk:128.214.205.63), in regards to editing record. It seems that in regard to the translated material, as added at this point, that the lines were in numbered in a correct numeric sequence throughout the translation; however, the section numbers were changed from the original, thus the lines being presented in in an incorrect order -- although the correct order seems to be indicated by the line numbering.
• Before this, on 4 March 2006 Chinese text of "Guo Shang" was added as one of Leocola's four contributions to Wikipedia. At this point "Guo Shang" was referenced directly before this, in a comment about love poetry which was later removed. The removal of the mention of "Guo Shang" changed the context of the following "#Text", making it even less obvious why that Chinese text was there. Dcattell (talk) 06:49, 28 January 2012 (UTC)Revising comment Dcattell (talk) 07:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
• 4 April 2015. The previously unidentified very free adaptation of the Nine Songs appears to have been written by Michael Saso www.michaelsaso.org/, where it also appears. It is very nicely done as a work of poetry, but it does not belong in the Wikipedia entry, so I removed it.140.233.148.221 (talk) 19:20, 4 April 2015 (UTC)Shaweng