Talk:Jinjer

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 August 2019 and 13 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ng200266.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:24, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Error in band influences

change Opeth to Otep. 155.190.3.8 (talk) 19:58, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: That is not supported by the sources. She and I are big fans of OPETH, my favorite band of all times. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Error in band genre

Eugene Abdukhanov (bassist for JINJER) has instructed that "metalcore" be removed from the bands genre. If you look at Eugene's facebook page (Intro section) he mentions "progressive/groove", thus I'd say "progressive/groove metal" is the proper genre. Cited is a facebook post where Eugene pleas for changing the JINJER Wikipedia page to remove metalcore.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilclark666 (talk • contribs) 14:09, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Eugene's issue with how a source has categorized the album is, unfortunately, nothing we can help him with. Wikipedia is built on what reliable secondary sources report. Various reliable sources have called Jinjer a metalcore band, and even if the sound and genre has changed in the latest album, we would still list the genre as it applies to past albums. Genres in particular are expected to adhere to secondary source reporting, and we don't change them because the artist makes a different claim. -- ferret (talk) 15:34, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

A big problem with this is that everyone says Jinjer is metalcore, in large part because Wikipedia says Jinjer is metalcore. This is a relatively new band in the wider metal scene, originating from a nation outside the major media markets of the west. So a lot of journalists who are writing about Jinjer are finding out about them for the first time. And for pop culture, Wikipedia is generally seen as a reliable source because of the democratic nature of the information.

Fans of Jinjer don't consider Jinjer metalcore, and a lot of the Jinjer fan community has come to them from prog bands like Rush, Tool, and Queensryche. Jinjer was founded as a metalcore band, but two of the 3 founding members left in the first year, and the new members have been steadily adding progressive elements to their songs. This can be seen since no later than 2012 when Exposed As A Liar was their first ever music video, and that song has substantial Jazz parts. And a re-recording of early hit Destroy that year with only a single founding member has notably more progressive guitar work than the original recordings. Their breakout hit video Pisces Live Session is half jazz and half metal, and it's notable that the metal blends with the jazz because their brand of metal is more like heavy jazz than the heavy rock that most metal has traditionally been. Similarly, "Judgement (& Punishment)" is about 1/3 reggae, both musically and vocally, and the metal parts are basically heavy reggae, same thing with the 2017 and later versions of Who Is Gonna Be The One where the vocals are mostly growling, but behind that the music is basically heavy reggae, and then they turn it into regular reggae for the outro (the original had more of a jazz ending).

So with each successive record since 2012's "Inhale Don't Breathe," (King Of Everything, Micro, Macro, and now Wallflowers) their sound has become steadily more progressive, especially on the last 3 where classically trained pianist and now drummer Vlad is having an ever greater influence on their musical compositions. That drives their overall sound since they compose the music first and Tatiana uses those compositions as a guide to how she weaves her vocal parts into the music. It is frequently more sensible to think of their music as very heavy jazz or even sometimes reggae than traditional rock-based metal. And Tatiana is more than happy to go along having sung Latin and jazz music frequently, and singing for a Latin and jazz side project band whose name is typically romanized Kodry during the early years of Jinjer before they were forced to leave their homes in 2014.

They still have a lot of metalcore elements like occasional use of blast beats and double-bass drumming, and occasional breakdowns, so adding "progressive-" to that would be a more accurate description than just "metalcore." Jeff F F (talk) 15:08, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Very well put, but allow me to go even further in your last paragraph: breakdowns, blast beats and double-bass aren't even indicative of metalcore, even though metalcore uses them. They're outright punk and heavy metal traits. Xicarus227 (talk) 11:34, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

> Wikipedia is built on what reliable secondary sources report

You should consider the fact that even reliable secondary sources can misinterpret certain things that are harder to classify, such as music genres.

Furthermore, you have one single source citing Jinjer as metalcore. Is that really enough when discussing a topic that's at least partially subjective by nature?

I can cite you much more than 1 source which don't even associate Jinjer with metalcore. If a multitude of sources say prog and just one says metalcore, do you add both?

Jinjer hasn't had metalcore influences (let alone been a metalcore band) for about a decade (their first album). Their bassist's request is there for a reason. It's time to change it. Xicarus227 (talk) 11:31, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's time to change it. It's mentioned in the first sentence people read and immediately gives misleading information, being a decade or more old information. This misleading information is then spread even further, feeding the cycle against changing it. To keep the genre not too specific in the first sentence I would go with just "metal band". Deadmarsh81 (talk) 19:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2022

The lead singer of Jinjer's name is mispelt. Your site says: Tatiana Shmailyuk But its spelt: "Tatiana Shmayluk" I know it's a Ukrainian name. And I'm a huge ass fan. thanks. 2603:7000:6F40:B5F0:6BF:7F96:A4FD:27C2 (talk) 03:57, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: We go by the common name most frequently used in sources. -- ferret (talk) 04:00, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2022

The final remaining founding member, Dmitriy Olsen, departed in 2015 and was not replaced, leaving Ibramkhalilov as sole guitarist. Olsen should be Oksen. WoeIsLee (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done PlanetJuice (talk • contribs) 20:55, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Ukrainization of names

According to transliteration rules, the actual names' translations shoud be: Tatiana — Tetyana Vladislav Ulasevich — Vladyslav Ulasevych Dmitriy Oksen — Dmytro Oksen Dmitriy Kim — Dmytro Kim. The confusion with Ukrainian names often comes from the fact that those names are heard much more often in translation from Russian language; however, it is not correct to transle a Ukrainian name to Russian, and then translate the Russian translation to English. Even though "Vladislav", "Dmitri", and "Tatiana" are used by the band members themselves, it is technically not correct. It would be nice to change them to what they should be, especially at this time... 2600:1700:9E21:790:A0A3:DA60:189F:AEF8 (talk) 04:58, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

This sounds like a fair point. Do you have any references to support it? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 06:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for delayed response. I guess, the Wikipedia article named "Romanization of Ukrainian" should be a good enough source on how you transliterate everything Ukrainian, including names. But if mentions of the transliterations are mandatory, the situation becomes tougher... Tetyana herself uses the Russian variant everywhere. I just did a search on Google and sadly haven't found any mentions of the correct transliteration. In fact, I was able to find mentions of the correct name only in Ukrainian, and even those don't come from really good sources. The best source for the name in Ukrainian is probably this one: https://www.metal-archives.com/artists/Tatiana_Shmayluk/795190 , where it says "Real/Full name," but it still suggests the incorrect Eng. translit right after. Technically, all of transliterations on the internet are mistakes, according to the rules of transliteration from Ukrainian to English (see: Wikipedia, "Romanization of Ukrainian,") but I don't think I am able to back it up with anything other than just grammar rules for all the band members. Yes, I know it's pretty awkward, but that's everything I was able find on the internet about Tetyana.

Vladyslav Ulasevych uses the correct transliteration of his name on his Instagram account. Also it's on this video of a company producing drums on YouTube, which isn't much, but it's something: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9kFcslTlLU&feature=youtu.be .

The best I can do regardless Dmytro Oksen is: https://music.fandom.com/wiki/Jinjer AND also this post on Facebook from Jinjer: https://m.facebook.com/JinjerOfficial/photos/friends-we-have-some-tragic/843403312351210/?locale=de_DE . However, I do understand that the Fandom is obviously not a good source, and the Facebook post is not ideal either, as the band mentions him as Dmytro in the first half of the post, but the info on the credit card that they provide right below says "Oksen Dmitrij". Therefore, my main source is "Romanization of Ukrainian" from Wikipedia, plus a few mentions in posts and fandom. I understand that it is not much, but that's the best I can find, apparently. 2600:1700:9E21:790:453B:C3BD:F995:AB33 (talk) 09:00, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

That all seems reasonable, thanks for following up. Perhaps, like pronouns, we should use the spellings that each band member uses for themselves? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 12:53, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

(This is still me, I just created an accuont).

In my honest opinion, it would be really nice to finally provide some independency and recognition to different slavic cultures, especially since it's not only a political thing but also backed up by basic grammar rules. I do understand that everybody outside of the slavic countries is used to the principe "slavic = Russian." It is very convenient but, recognition and inclusion of all the different slavic cultures by other nations should happen sooner or later. There is no USSR anymore. Such basic thing as writing a Ukrainian name as a Ukrainian name and not its Russian synonym would be not only the right thing to do grammatically, but also highly appreciated by all Ukrainians, obviously. Same is true for any other slavic country.

Sincerely, Dtsvyntarnyi (talk) 17:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm starting to diverge from you here. Firstly, I don't think most non-Slavic people equate Slavic with Russian. Where did you get that idea? I'm half Czech, for example, and I've never heard such a mistaken comparison. Same for Polish or (former) Yugoslavian. I think your claim is a stretch. Ukrainian and Russian, sure, but there's strong historical reasons to conflate those two.

As for your point about writing Ukrainian using a spelling that more closely matches the language, I completely agree, but I'm not sure if there's currently a consensus on the topic on Wikipedia. As I suggested before, I think it might be best to just use the spelling each band member prefers. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 21:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

You are right, sorry for exaggeration. I shouldn't have written all of that, I think I got too emotional about it. My original point remains the same: Ukrainian names should be translated like Ukrainian names, espetially at this time. Dtsvyntarnyi (talk) 22:03, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't have a strong position on the matter, so I'll leave it up to you :) Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 05:18, 14 March 2023 (UTC)