Talk:Jimmy McLarnin

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Someone who lived only a few months in Ireland doesn't really deserve to be known as an Irish Boxer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.70.202.43 (talk) 11:48, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Source?--Vintagekits (talk) 20:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

It's common sense. Where's your source that he self-indentified as Irish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.82.93 (talk) 10:06, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

We dont work on "common sense" here - we work of information that is verifiable. Firstly, he nickname was the "Irish Lullaby" and the "the "Irish Wizard" which will give you some idea as to how he identified himself. Also her are a number of references which refer to him as Irish. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5].

Finally this is an excerpt from the New York Times in 1933 following McLarnin beating Young Corbett III to win the world title. They said it was the "most spectacular upset the welterweight division has known in many years"....the "Irishman rushed across the ring and punched Corbett in the jaw again and Referee George Blake stopped the contest immediately. Corbett was out on his feet.... Corbett was the seventh welterweight champion in succession to lose possession of the title in defending it for the first time.". regards--Vintagekits (talk) 11:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Your information is taken from articles that are not dealing with McLarnin's nationality, so it is not verifiable either. They are unrealiable. "Irish" and "Irishman" are used in the loosest sense in your "sources". Iain Paisley could be described as an Irishman - he is after all a man from the island of Ireland - but it says nothing about how he self-indentifies. The same is true for McLarnin. Where are the primary sources in which he describes himself as Irish at the expense of being British? His nicknames are also indicative of how others saw him at the time. He fought during the 1930s and certain people within the boxing establishment stuck a label on him to differentiate him from Jewish and Italian fighters who dominated in America. They weren't going to argue semantics. That's what it was like in America at this time. Do these complexities just go over your head?

Furthermore, why is their an Irish flag? That was adopted after 1921; Mclarnin was born in 1907 in a country united under one flag, the Union flag. Canadian Nationality law did not exist until 1948 so McClarnin would have had British nationality at first during his formative years as a boxer, in addition to American nationality after 1933, which is to be expected as that was where professional boxing in North America was centred. There is no way McLarnin held Irish citizenship as it existed post-1921, so the use of the Tricolour is innaccurate. The use of the Maple Leaf is also inaccurate, it should be the 1921 edition of the Red Ensign. Either way it is indicative of McLarnin's status as a British and not an Irish subject. Any flag other that the correct Canadian flag, a Union flag (to denote his place of birth) and an American flag would be misleading.

That seems to me to be your aim: to mislead as many unsuspected readers as possible because as an Irish nationalist you can't handle the fact that McLarnin was Canadian and so British. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.189.67 (talk) 23:41, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I am aware that nationality, and especially Irish nationality, can be a divisive topic, but please watch your tone – you may disagree with him, but I see no evidence that Vintagekits is actively seeking to mislead anybody. It is clear that we need to find some sort of resolution to this argument. Two workable solutions might be either to list his nationality as Irish Canadian - with that link and no flags - or to remove nationality from the infobox entirely as it is so unclear. What do you both think? Rje (talk) 13:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not getting into a petty argument with someone who refuses to accept sources from the day and mordern times which shows McLarnin was referred to consistantly as Irish - I've provded sources to back up my argument you have just provided waffle!--Vintagekits (talk) 13:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

McLarnin was Canadian/American and nothing else. This is the user (Vintagekits) who claims that Wayne McCullough is solely American as he recently gained American citizenship, and demanded that he be seen as such: an American boxer. This is despite the fact that he would clearly have dual nationality, being born in Northern Ireland. I attempted to edit as such but my edits were reverted. There is nothing to indicate that McLarnin was made a citizen of the Irish Free State, yet somehow the rules this user has previously made up are now reversed and the use of the Irish Tricolour is allowed.

I won't stop saying this, the words "Irishman" and "Irish" in your sources clearly do not indicated Irish nationality under under Irish nationality law as it has existed at any time since 1921. Irish/Canadian is not a nationality as the link is to the Irish people. Certainly he may have been an Irishman, but nonetheless that is not his nationality nor is it a state for which he can be granted citizenship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.189.67 (talk) 09:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Please back up your claims with sources - unless you do that then there is no point in continuing this dicussing. I have backed up my assertions with sources, multiple sources infact. --Vintagekits (talk) 09:22, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S. If you are so interested in the man why not try and contribute to the article and make it better instead of edit warring over this minor issue! Looking at your edit history it appears to me that you are solely here for disruptive purposes and not constructive ones.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not making any claims that need to be backed up. I'm pointing out instances where you have claimed something that is unsupported, such as Jimmy McLarnin having Irish nationality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.189.67 (talk) 09:54, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh but you do!

1."McLarnin was Canadian/American and nothing else." - Prove it! Whats the source thats states that.

2. "There is nothing to indicate that McLarnin was made a citizen of the Irish Free State, yet somehow the rules this user has previously made up are now reversed and the use of the Irish Tricolour is allowed." - I have provided source, multiple sources from the time he was boxing and from today which refer to him as Irish - so unless you have a source that refutes that then for the purposes of this article then it stays.

3. "the words "Irishman" and "Irish" in your sources clearly do not indicated Irish nationality under under Irish nationality law as it has existed at any time since 1921." - How do you know they are not referring to his nationality - I have read the articles and none of them say this.

4. "Irish/Canadian is not a nationality" Irish and Canadian ARE nationalities!

I think you need to have a read of these little puppies before I continue - WP:OR and WP:V. If some editor could step in now because I havent the time or energy.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

"McLarnin was Canadian/American and nothing else." - Prove it! Whats the source thats states that."

What I am doing is inferring from the facts: the fact that he was Canadian; that it was impossible for him to hold Irish nationality and that he became an American citizen in 1933. That is known as a logical argument in case you don't know. Anybody can write an article on some cheap website, including Plastic Paddys with a victim complex like you. They don't necessarily know very much. Therefore they are unreliable sources. These are simple questions any historian must ask himself, no matter how well-esteemed they are and what the subject matter is. You don't seem to know this.

More to the point, are any of your sources an authority on international nationality laws because that is what we are debating? Look at the relevant articles on this very website, Irish nationality law in particular, and you will see he could not have held Irish nationality. Can you simply not understand that someone born in Ireland in 1907 and who emigrated before the creation of Irish citizenship, and who never returned to apply for citizenship, could not be a citizen of the Irish Free State.

"How do you know they are not referring to his nationality?"

How do you know they are? Ideally we need a primary source from McLarnin himself, or an excerpt from his offical biography if there is one. In absence of this and with the facts in order, we must assume that before he took out American citizenship on October 27, 1933, he was solely Canadian and so a citizen of the British Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.189.67 (talk) 11:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

"I have read the articles and none of them say this."

Of course they don't because I said it.

"Irish and Canadian ARE nationalities!"

Canadian is a nationality as the link is to Canada, a political state. Irish links to the Irish people, described as an ethnic group on this website.

Your replies are all over the place and it is impossible to have a discussion with you because you jump from one hypocritical point to the next. I therefore outlined my queries in numbered points. If you reply to each number then we might be able to get somewhere - despite your abuse!

1. We dont "infer from the facts" here - like I said have a read of WP:OR and WP:V. Have you read these policies?

2. "impossible for him to hold Irish nationality" - everyone born on the island of Ireland is and was entitled to Irish citizenship and nationality.

3. "Ideally we need a primary source from McLarnin himself, or an excerpt from his offical biography if there is one." - again this is not how wikipedia works - in fact primary sources and less reliable than secondary sources in wiki's eyes. And despite that, we have sources saying that McLarnin was Irish and unless you can provide sources to disprove this then you are the one on the back foot. The onus is on you to disprove that sources that I have provided.

4. "we must assume that before he took out American citizenship on October 27, 1933, he was solely Canadian and so a citizen of the British Empire" - why "must we assume" this - what is your source for this information?

5. "Anybody can write an internet article on some cheap website" - correct, anyone can set up and website and write what they want - however, the sources I provided were from BritishBoxing.net, the Irish Independent, the New York Times, the Irish Film and Television Network and the World Boxing Hall of Fame - do you have a problem with ALL of these sources?

6. "including Plastic Paddys like you with a victim complex." - I would remind you to read WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL.

Now unless you can engage in a civil discussion and address the points raised above then I am going to have to call admin in to sort this out.--Vintagekits (talk) 11:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

2. If McLarnin was entitled to Irish nationality he was doubly entitled to British nationality being born in present day Northern Ireland and as a resident of Canada. You cannot prove that McLarnin viewed himself as being an expatriate from the Irish Free State —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.189.67 (talk) 12:05, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

4. There isn't a reliable source. That is why.

5. These articles still refer to McLarnin as Irish or Irishman in the sense of a native of the island of Ireland. Where does it say they are talking about his status as an Irish subject? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.189.67 (talk) 12:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Please repond to all queries and please supply sources to back up your argument in each case or else this conversation ends here. Also please indent you replies to aid other readers in following the flow of the conversation. Also if you want to be taken seriously you should register your account instead of having in IP account. Finally, I am sure you will enjoy reading this article from The Ring.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:27, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Please respond to points 1, 3 and 6.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

You cannot prove that McLarnin viewed himself as being an expatriate from the Irish Free State. Furthermore, that Ring article is not a study on Irish nationality law, nor does it state how McLarnin viewed himself, hence the need for a primary source.

"Please repond to all queries".

Half of them aren't even questions so how I can I respond?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.189.67 (talk) 12:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I never said they were questions, ALL points require a response prior to this discussion continuing.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you answer my question? Do you have a souce which proves uncategorically that Jimmy McLarnin self-indentified as Irish and not British and that he himself claimed Irish nationality, other than a few references to him being an "Irishman"?--84.71.189.67 (talk) 13:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I am happy to answer any questions. Now why are you avoiding mine? To answer your moronic question - I have provided sources which state he was Irish - that is quite enough. Do you have any sources which state he had a British or Canadian passport? Anyway, I think you are mixing up nationality with citizenship - they are two different concepts!--Vintagekits (talk) 14:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

"I have provided sources which state he was Irish - that is quite enough"

I'm afraid for any serious historian like you pretend to be it is not enough. Your sources aren't up to scrath and only give a vague notion of "Irishness" which does not amount to either nationality of citizenship, only heritage. From the point of view of my argument, I believe he has Canadian citizenship (as is seen in the most basic of sources such as Encyclopedia Britannica or Boxrec) and so, as per the Canadian nationality laws of the time, British citizenship. Any proof that he actively sought out Irish citizenship or to be recognized as such an Irish citizen would do, but as of yet you have none.--84.71.189.67 (talk) 15:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

"I believe he has Canadian citizenship" - why do you believe it - have you got any proof to back that up - do I ONCE AGAIN have to remind you of WP:OR? You have not provided any source which states he is British or that he had a Canadian passport! But again this would deal with his citizenship - not his nationality. Do you know what the difference is?--Vintagekits (talk) 16:04, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I know that any state has the right to define the status of its people, i.e. their nationality. The two are interlinked. I don't subscribe to what I know is your view of nationality: that it can exist without a state, based on cultural, linguistic or ethnic links. To me nationality cannot exist without a state. The fact that both Canada and Ireland did not have seperate nationality laws in 1907 would imply that McLarnin had British citizenship, unless he sought out Irish citizenship, and was not simply a defacto citizen after the creation of the Irish Free State, but you have no proof of that. If you are so desperate for a source declaring McLarnin as Canadian, Boxrec should suffice: http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Jimmy_McLarnin.

Of course that source means nothing to me as like your sources they do not deal with the complexities of his nationality and the fact that he is Canadian is already widely known and doesn't need proven. Furthermore, citizenship is not simply defined as having a passport - especially in the 1920s and 30s when they were relatively uncommon - as you seem to think. Being born a citizen of the British Empire and living in Canada would ensure he remained as such, unless, as stated, he desired Irish citizenship, which you are unlikely to find proof of because it probably never happened. I imagine he didn't care what his citizenship was, but the fact is he was born a British subject and logically would have remained so until 1933, when there is clear evidence he became an American citizen.--81.77.105.141 (talk) 10:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

All of that is your opinion - I am sick of asking this - have you read WP:OR and WP:V - have you read them?--Vintagekits (talk) 08:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

My opinion on McLarnin's nationality clearly has had more though put into it than any of your pathetic sources, which you take at face value. --84.71.189.67 (talk) 10:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you read WP:OR and WP:V?--Vintagekits (talk) 12:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Religion

This article makes reference to him as a Methodist, or of a Methodist upbringing?

http://www.tomhawthorn.com/node/3181.77.105.141 (talk) 15:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Irish or Canadian??

The old discussion about his nationality is popping up again. Can someone check on this issue, on what has been agreed upon? Thanks. Super48paul (talk) 10:22, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

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Lead

@Donniediamond: per MOS:CONTEXTBIO:

The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. For guidance on historic place name versus modern-day names, see WP:MODERNPLACENAME.

Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. (bolding mine)

As you can see, being born in Ireland to Irish parents and identifying as Irish has no impact on CONTEXTBIO. He became notable as a Canadian (after leaving Ireland at the age of three). What aspect of being born in Ireland is relevant to his notability? – ².O.^Boxing 13:14, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi SCB, Irish was his nationality not just his ethnicity. He was born in Ireland. He continued to self identify as Irish. That makes him Irish.--Donniediamond (talk) 17:57, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Ok...so how does that impact CONTEXTBIO? Where is the relevance to his notability? This is almost identical to the Nina Dobrev dispute; born in Bulgaria, identifies as Bulgarian but became notable after emigrating to Canada. Therefore, the lead follows CONTEXTBIO with Canadian actress. – ².O.^Boxing 20:20, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Not sure about that actress but McLarnin was never notable in Canada and only became notable after he moved to the US.

However, the Irish element is notable per MOS:CONTEXTBIO as that is how he styled himself inside the ring and that was an integral part of the Irish vs. Jewish rivalry in boxing at the time.--Donniediamond (talk) 20:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

British citizen until 1922

Ireland was part of United Kingdom until 1922 and every Irish born in Ireland before 1922 is a British citizen. That's a historical fact.

Articles:--Donniediamond (talk) 23:24, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

1. History of Ireland (1801–1923)
2. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
3. Irish nationality law — Simultaneous lines of Irish and British citizenship for descendants of pre-1922 Irish emigrants

You are confusing citizenship with nationality. This has already been discussed a number of times above.--Donniediamond (talk) 23:24, 22 February 2022 (UTC)