Talk:Jim Shannon

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Questionable sourcing regarding TA expulsion

I removed this content which relies on a single source, an essay published by The Irish Association for Cultural, Economic and Social Relations, which is described as a "membership-driven forum." Per WP:BLP, we should have stronger sourcing for such an assertion. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The author of the cited essay published by The Irish Association for Cultural, Economic and Social Relations is Steve Bruce, who has been Professor of Sociology at the University of Aberdeen since 1991 and is a fellow of the British Academy and the Royal Society of Edinburgh. Bruce is the author of a number of books on Northern Ireland's politics, including The Red Hand: Protestant Paramilitaries in Northern Ireland, Paisley: Religion and Politics in Northern Ireland and The Edge of the Union : The Ulster Loyalist Political Vision (all of which are widely cited on this site).

To be clear, erring on the side of the caution when WP:BLP is in play is eminently sensible and indeed what the policy proscribes. I'm not disputing this decision only stating for the record that the works of Steve Bruce would generally be considered to be reliable sources and editors should not be deterred from referencing them.

-Regards --NelsonEdit2 (talk) 21:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, if was sourcing less contentious material I probably wouldn't have questioned it, but having a single source for that content in the context of a relatively short "personal life" section was concerning. It feels borderline to me, and as you said I'd like to begin by erring on the side of caution and see if others have input. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 19:52, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Revisiting this issue having collated a greater number of sources.

Firstly a quote from Shannon, speaking in the UK Parliament (Hansard, Reserve Forces, Volume 602: debated on Tuesday 17 November 2015)[1].

I became a Member of Parliament, like the hon. Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley), in May 2010, and one of the first things that I was introduced to was the armed forces parliamentary scheme. I remember that there was an event—in the Jubilee Room, I think—and I met Sir Neil, who informed me about the scheme. From the outset, I was keen to hear more, as in the past I had served with the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years and in the Territorial Army Royal Artillery for eleven and a half years as a part-time soldier.

The cited essay by Professor Steven Bruce (Religion and Violence: The Case of Paisley and Ulster Evangelicals) is derived from an earlier published work of his of the same name. Here's the section recounting Ulster Resistance and the Newtownards Territorial Army base expulsions:

Two DUP activists from the same area, Noel Little and James King, were caught trying to swap a Shorts missile system for small arms with the South African state company Armscor. Both were members of Paisley’s Free Presbyterian Church. A third member of that group was a member of a Territorial Army missile unit which trained with a replica of the Shorts weapon. Three of his colleagues were drummed out of the TA; one, Jim Shannon, was a leading DUP councillor who was later mayor of Newtownards (see Sunday World 29 March 1992).

Bruce, S. (2001). Fundamentalism and Political Violence: The Case of Paisley and Ulster Evangelicals. Religion, 31(4), 387–405. doi:10.1006/reli.2001.0357

The expulsion of three Territorial Army soldiers based at Newtownards was reported in contemporary news outlets including the Belfast Telegraph, News Letter, Irish Times, Irish Independent, Irish Examiner, Evening Echo and BBC.

A few quotes from the News Letter ("Sacked soldiers cases probed" 30 May 1989).

Page 1 The Ministry of Defence is investigating the cases of three part-time Ulster soldiers discharged from the Territorial Army. DUP deputy leader Peter Robinson has written to the Secretary of State for Defence, George Younger, calling for a full inquiry. The men, all of whom were stationed at a TA base in Co Down, were told of the decision by their commanding officer a fortnight ago. It is understood they were discharged under the Terms and Service of Soldiers (Section 502), which deals with misconduct. One of the men, Cpl James Shannon, has been a leading member of the DUP in Co Down for the past 12 years and a councillor for five. He represents one of seven seats in Ards Peninsula, which takes in Donaghadee, Portaferry, Ballywalter, Portavogie and Millisle and was returned with an increased vote in this month's local government elections. Mr Shannon refused to comment on the dismissal last night, saying he could not speak while the matter was under investigation.

Page 2 He would not be drawn on whether he hoped to be re-instated, though it is under stood all three men are asking for their expulsions to be quashed or, failing that, allowed an appeal to clear their names. Mr Shannon did confirm however, that holding elected office did not bar him from part-time membership of the regiment. But he said that, as a constituency matter, he could not name the other soldiers involved. The East Belfast MP said Mr Younger had acknowledged his letter, adding the matter was currently under investigation.

And from the Evening Echo ("Call for army-Loyalist enquiry", 30 May 1989)

Page 3 A NORTHERN politician today called for a top level enquiry to review events in recent months surrounding Shorts missile parts and the Territorial Army. SDLP Councillor Brian Feeney insisted "there should be an enquiry into the whole affair of the last two months, con ducted by civil authorities, by which I mean the Special Branch and chaired by a senior barrister." While not referring to claims made earlier by DUP Deputy Leader Peter Robinson that three Territorial Army soldiers had been discharged, Dr. Feeney called on the part-time force to maintain the "strictest vetting". He said any enquiry would have to determine what links existed between the force and extreme Loyalist groups.

BBC: Inside Ulster television news report dated 29 May 1989.[2]

And from the Belfast Telegraph ("MoD silent on TA dimissal 'probe'", 30 May 1989)

According to Mr Robinson, the three men were escorted from their base at Newtownards over two weeks ago after being informed by their commanding officer that they were being discharged. Mr Robinson, the MP for East Belfast, alleged that the three were refused the right of appeal. Mr Robinson said today that while he was not prepared to name the men as he had taken up their case as a constituency matter, he could reveal that one of them had been with the TA for 11 years and had reached the rank of Lance Bombadier.

Another from the News Letter ("Ex-TA man questioned", 24 June 1989):

A DUP councillor dismissed last month from the Territorial Army has confirmed that he was detained recently by the RUC. Ards councillor Jim Shannon said he was released without being charged and had no complaint against the police but was suspicious that his detention was "designed to embarrass the DUP" in the run-up to the European election. Mr Shannon was one of three men dismissed from the TA. He had held the rank of corporal for 11 years.

I hope this contribution is helpful in clarifying this issue. If anyone else has further reliable sources to share that would be very much appreciated.

-Regards NelsonEdit2 (talk) 15:57, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh, let me add, sources variously attribute to Shannon the rank of corporal or bombardier. This is a quirk of British Army tradition; a corporal in the Royal Artillery is known as a bombardier.[3] NelsonEdit2 (talk) 16:00, 20 June 2023 (UTC)