Talk:James Naismith

The term "winningest"

"However, Naismith coached Forrest "Phog" Allen, who then became the one of winningest coaches in U.S. college basketball history, and his eventual successor."

Can anybody think of an actual word that could be used in place of 'winningest'. Mullet — Preceding undated comment added 12:57, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

"Winningest" is an actual word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.43.172.254 (talk) 14:04, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I will keep that in but am removing the link because it is red anyhow. --Adam ^(talk) 16:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

"Winningest" is not a word: File:Winningest.png

PeteVerdon 16:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I will change the text to something better. --Adam ^(talk) 16:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Googling for 'winningest' retrieves many hits referring to coaches, teams and baseball pitchers. Some american dictionaries already list it as 'informal'. See the following usenet thread.

• http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_frm/thread/c6ac304e774bb766/735be628f9333140?lnk=st&q=winningest&rnum=2#735be628f9333140

Perhaps we want to be conservative and leave it out, but its used frequently enough that it will enter the dictionaries sooner or later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.63.144.242 (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't rely on the OED as the final word in what is or is not a proper word in English, OED recently added "bootylicious" as an official word to the lexicon. So if "bootylicious" is allowed, certainly something more usable such as "winningest" is as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.156.242.39 (talk) 21:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no need to get into a long discussion as to whether the utterance "winningest" is, is not, or is about to become a word. Articles in the Wikipedia should be written in a reasonably formal tone and by no means could "winningest" be considered formal English. Greenshed 00:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not? Gnosticdogma 17:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not? Because it's not a real word and is extremely poor grammar, that's why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.41.79 (talk) 13:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Holyoke, Massachusetts

Naismith lived in Holyoke, Massachusetts when he worked as a football coach for Springfield College, and invented Basketball. Holyoke, Massachusetts laudes being the "Home of Volleyball", and some also claim that Naismith invented Basketball at home not at work!!! rmac1954@iwon.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmac1954 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

MD?

Did Naismith really have an MD? Those letters are after his name, but there's nothing in the bio about him having attended medical school or worked as a physician. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.228.97.28 (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Winningest coaches changed

Edited "Coaching Career" to reflect that Dean Smith and Adolph Rupp are not THE two winningest, but two OF the winningest coaches, now that Bobby Knight has overtaken Adolph Rupp's spot for #2. Now Smith and Rupp are #1 and #3, respectively, until Bobby Knight probably breaks Dean's record in a couple weeks. Tentonbricks 01:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Sigma Phi Epsilion affiliation

I have heard from multiple sources that it is true that Naismith was affiliated with Sigma Phi Epsilon; however, according to this article Naismith graduated from McGill, which does not have a chapter of Sigma Phi Epsilon chapter, nor does any other university in Canada. Does anyone have any input on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.107.70 (talk) 23:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Middle initial "A"

Could his name somehow be changed so that it doesn't include the middle initial "A"? James Naismith never had a middle name and never signed his name with the "A" initial. The "A" was added by someone in the administration at the University of Kansas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.243.32.181 (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I interviewed Dr. Naismith's only surviving child at that time -1982 - and she too stated that her father never had a middle initial "A". The Basketball Hall of Fame also clarifies this as does other members of his family and personal friends of his. So why does Wikipedia continue to have it as Dr James A Naismith when using a wrong reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.65.80.121 (talk) 04:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Women's rules

The sentence "Even Naismith felt that it was appropriate to modify the rules somewhat to account for the delicate nature of women." was changed on account of being POV, and rightly so. However, "Naismith felt that it was appropriate to modify the rules somewhat to account for his perception of women." is a garden path sentence -- it ascribes to Naismith an awareness of his own perception of women, which is not really the point. I took the sentence out altogether -- I think that either the grounds on which one would modify a sport's rules for women are obvious from the historical context, or they should be described in more detail -- bearing in mind that the article is about James Naismith and if opinions are ascribed to him, they should be sourced. Matuszek 19:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Or was it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.162.184.66 (talk) 16:37, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 08:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Legacy Section

Is this a joke? The word gymnasium is derived from James Naismith's name in honor of him??? C'mon, and his bother, John Arena built the first modern basketball venue? haha! Someone's got an active imagination and is really bored. March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.82.197 (talk) 17:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

Shouldn't there be an infobox rather than just a picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.117.220 (talk) 00:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Luther Gulick

This article completely ignores how, in inventing basketball, James Naismith worked with Luther Gulick —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mejari (talk • contribs) 23:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Big rewrite for WP:GAC

I have just rewritten the article from scratch and hope to make it an good article. Help and constructive criticism are appreciated. Onomatopoeia (talk) 22:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:James Naismith/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Rather than the usual "tick-a-box" approach, I thought I'd do something a tad more informal for the review. First off, this was an excellent article to read - I enjoyed it, learned a lot, and had no difficulties with the prose. This was particularly enjoyable, as many articles have a more stilted style that is harder to read. I was a tad concerned about four issues, though:

1. While not essential for a GA, I'd have liked to have seen citation templates used. There are two reasons for this. On is that they tend to format the citations in a Harvard style, which may not be the only standard, but is one of the better ones. The second is that they help to make sure that all available information is provided. For example, the first reference, "James Naismith Biography", is part of the Encyclopedia of World Biography, but this isn't mentioned in the citation (and there are similar problems with a couple of the others).

1. Some of the references are not exactly ideal, although it is clear that it is very well referenced overall. For an article like this I would have looked to offline sources as well, and there are both books and academic papers which could have been excellent sources.

1. The "13 original rules" seem a tad out of place. If I was writing this as a paper, I might have added them as an appendix, but in Wikipedia this isn't possible. Thus they appear as part of the main article, even though there are peripheral to the topic. While I wouldn't say that they have to be removed, I'd suggest considering moving them to Rules of basketball, which seems an appropriate place, and could probably do with them. You are, of course, welcome to disagree. :)

1. There's some repetition in "Personal life" with what is in "early life" - probably doesn't mean much, but it is worth considering if it can be streamlined (noting that this may not be possible).

Anyway, I'll put it on hold for now. I don't think that all of these issues need to be addressed completely, but I think it is worth discussing some of them before passing the article. Overall, though, I still feel that this article is very good - it says a lot, I think, when you genuinely enjoy reading a biography. - Bilby (talk) 13:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey there, thanks for the precise and detailed review. Here my comments:

1. Cites now all use citation templates.
2. I would like to incorporate some books but I do not have any ATM. I'll try to look around though.
3. The 13 original rules are not outsourced at Rules_of_basketball#13_original_rules
4. I rewrote the "early life" section to avoid reduncancy with "personal life".

-Onomatopoeia (talk) 22:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• All good. :) I've found some additional refs that will help - I have a couple of good journal articles, and some other odds and ends that will remove any doubt with a couple of the sources. I'll add them later. One ref has a broken link as well, but that one should be easy to fix or replace, and using AGF it seems clear that it was probably good before. At the moment, though, it passes GA, and any changes are simply to keep improving it beyond that. Well done! - Bilby (talk) 12:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Report

My teacher is makig us write a report. Any useful info appreciated —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirby2845 (talk • contribs) 16:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

place of birth and death

He was born in 1861. "Canada" proper didn't exist until 1867. The official country would be the United "Province of Canada". On top of this, the province of "Ontario" didn't exist at the time of his birth either. The article as it is would be fine if he was born post-confederation, but since he was born six years prior, it would be wrong to fudge the history.

Comments? --Lvivske (talk) 07:50, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Naismith was born in what was called British North America, in the province of Canada. He would have considered himself both British and Canadian. I think saying he was Canadian-born is correct. I do question the article saying he was a "a Canadian-born American sports coach." He became an American in 1925, when he was 64-years-old and no longer a sports coach. I think that article should say he was "a Canadian sports coach." Que-Can (talk) 14:15, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

His citizenship would have been a 'British subject' by birth and he would have likely considered himself Scottish like his parents —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.112.152 (talk) 18:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Being born in a pre Confederation Canada does not mean you aren't Canadian. Canadian History does not magically appear in 1867 and everything before that is a mirage. There are numerous famous Canadians who were born before 1867, they may have considered themselves British subjects if they had an English background, but at the core they were also Canadian. http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=14225

He is also in the Canadian Basketball Hall of Fame. The main requirement to even be considered for induction into the CB Hall of Fame is "All nominees must be Canadian citizens, residents of Canada for a minimum of five years, born in Canada or made their distinguished contribution to the game of basketball in Canada." http://basketball.ca/en/hm/inside.php?sid=1&id=4779 --Steveio (talk) 23:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Then he would qualify as both a resident (perhaps) and "distinguished contribution to the game of basketball in Canada". Just because he was born in what would later become Canada doesn't make him a Canadian citizen, and ledes per WP:MOS are to represent citizenship. In the case of Naismith, he was British and by the time Canadian citizenship came into existence he was already out of the country and on his way to naturalizing in America. Calling him Canadian (by citizenship, not by birth, since he was born in Upper Canada) reeks of reverse engineering history to befit nationalist sentiment.--Львівське (говорити) 08:28, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

You have to be Canadian to be in the Canadian Basketball Hall of Fame, end of story. Stop fudging up history so it can suit your agenda, if someone was born in Canada prior to the Canadian confederation they are still considered to be Canadian by historical standards. --Steveio (talk) 02:20, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm only enforcing the WP:MOS which is based on citizenship, not pseudo-nationality or historical revisionism. Find a source that says he was a Canadian citizen and not a British subject, or stop removing the fact that he was a British subject--Львівське (говорити) 02:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_inventions#Sport_and_entertainment - Naismith is recognised as the Canadian inventor of Basketball.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian_Invention - James Naismith's invented game of Basketball was a candidate on this show produced by the Canadian Broadcasting Corp.

Are you calling Canadian historians liars? This is what you are implying, which is a gross insult. Both these shows produced by the Canadian government list James Naismith as a Canadian. --Steveio (talk) 02:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)'

Are these the same kinds of 'historians' that credit Bell as a Canadian inventor? Sure, Naismith was Canadian-born but what's being disputed was whether he was a British subject or a Canadian citizen, not your national retro-history. The guy was American, regardless.--Львівське (говорити) 06:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

And to address your point about citizenship I present to you the fact that being Canadian doesn't rely solely on citizenship. This point is especially important when considering historical Canadian figures born in Canada prior to Confederation. Being Canadian, is a person who identifies with the country of Canada. The connection may be genetic, residential, legal, historical, cultural, or ethnic!

The term "Canadian", once describing a francophone population, was adopted by English-speaking residents of the Canadas as well, marking the process of converting 'British' immigrants into 'Canadians.' See for example Susanna Moodie, Roughing It in the Bush, Toronto: McClelland & Stewart Limited, 1970, p. 31: quote: "British mothers of Canadian sons!—learn to feel for their country the same enthusiasm which fills your hearts when thinking of the glory of your own. Teach them to love Canada...make your children proud of the land of their birth." --Steveio (talk) 03:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I never said it relied on citizenship, I said the lede relies on citizenship and if he wasn't a Canadian citizen you can't lie that he was.--Львівське (говорити) 06:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Your views on citizenship are completely irrelevant to the discussion. This is about whether James Naismith qualifies as a Canadian, according to numerous academic sources which I have provided he does indeed qualify. There is no lying involved, being a Canadian doesn't solely rely on citizenship stop implying that it does. --Steveio (talk) 08:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

The WP:MOS is not irrelevant. Citizenship is relevant. He was a British Subject - you keep removing this fact fro the lede in place of of Canadian (citizen), a fact that has not been established yet. Please stop editing in bad faith. Prove the citizenship, abide by the manual of style, get a proper source. --Львівське (говорити) 08:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It isn't about citizenship, being Canadian has nothing to do with citizenship until you accept this obvious fact I suggest you stop vandalising this page. James Naismith is Canadian, your opinion does not change facts. --Steveio (talk) 08:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

The lede is about citizenship. Accusing me of vandalism when you are reverting like mad is bad taste. Just because you want to censor the fact that he was British for some nationalist history of yours doesn't change facts. Just because you don't like the MOS doesn't give you right to ignore it to suit yourself.--Львівське (говорити) 09:37, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

You accused me of vandalism, which is why I brought it up. You act as if I am the only one doing the reverting, when you have reverted all of my edits on the page. --Steveio (talk) 10:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Canadians didn't get any form of citizenship of their own until 1921, and even then they retained their status as British subjects until as late as 1946. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.115.127 (talk) 10:27, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Naismith Dean Smith's coach?

Dean Smith could not have been coached directly by Naismith unless he was done so at age 8. Dean Smith was born February 28, 1931. Naismith died November 28, 1939.

Here is the reference to support that assertion: COLLEGE YEARS, 1949-53 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.156.90.37 (talk) 02:24, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The article is discussing Phog Allen at that point, who was Naismith's protege at Kansas. Ryan2845 (talk) 02:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Basketball may have been born in Massachusetts, but it grew up in Indiana. quote

I notice the reference for this quote is a 2005 news article where the author states this was a quote, but gives no reference. I've read a lot about Naismith and lot of his own quotes through the years, but I've never heard of nor read this one before. Does anyone have the original source? Like when and where he said it and who quoted him as saying it or where this quote was originally published?Kmanblue (talk) 17:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I just googled the sentence and found this article: [1]. I see no date of publication on it, but it uses verbatim the sentence that the 2005 article attributes to Naismith without presenting it as a quotation. It does, however, give as a direct quotation of something Naismith said in a speech in 1936 the following: "Basketball really had its beginning in Indiana, which remains today in the center of the sport." It would seem that the writer of the 2005 article (or someone else in between) has mistaken the more pithy paraphrase of that sentiment that may be just a modern journalist's creation. 99.192.48.135 (talk) 14:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Further googling shows that Naismith said "Basketball really had its beginning in Indiana, which remains today in the center of the sport" in a speech at the Annual Invitational Dinner of the Physical Education Department of the Y.M.C.A. at Indianapolis, Indiana, March 27, 1936. The source cited for this is Hoosier Hysteria: A History of Indiana High School Basketball by Herb Schwomeyer (Greenfield, Indiana, 1970, pgs. 3, 5, 6, 11, 14, 15, and 16). The (undated) article I cited above clearly gets its information from this book, as it mentions the book in the text and the article title comes from the book title. 99.192.48.135 (talk) 14:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that info. Now I wonder if it's possible for someone to get a copy of his speech from that night in 1936? Or even if there is a copy somewhere. Kmanblue (talk) 02:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Audio recording of Naismith discovered in November 2015

Interesting news; probably has some good info that could be added to the article: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14375344/kansas-researcher-finds-rare-audio-basketball-inventor-james-naismith Gmporr (talk) 01:41, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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Educational Dates

Are these correct? Born 1861, was graduated from HS in '83 at about 22, and then college in '88 at about age 27?

Msjayhawk (talk) 18:55, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

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Middle initial, but no mention of bottom of basket being closed!

Curious that the middle initial - - arguably, of no importance whatsoever - - garnered two sentences, but, there is no mention of the very important fact that the bottom of the original "basket" was CLOSED, thus, forcing the need to have someone on a ladder or perch to get the ball out of the basket! The hole was added, so to speak, a couple of years, later! (ref: https://dunkorthree.com/james-naismith-basketball-history/) Skaizun (talk) 13:31, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Province of Canada??

please fix description to state. Province of Ontario Canada And what is the Canada West thing. Its central Canada. 184.147.198.43 (talk) 16:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Ontario didn't exist until Confederation in 1867. Prior to Confederation, Quebec and Ontario were together part of the colony named 'Province of Canada', with the Ontario portion referred to at the time as 'Canada West'. Reesorville (talk) 02:11, 19 July 2024 (UTC)