Talk:Jim Morrison/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Who changed the opening paragraph?

The opening paragraph used to explain a lot about Morrison being know for his time with the Doors, but also talked about his behavior on stage and his career as a poet. Now, somebody changed it to a short, boring sentence. How is that supposed to grab the reader's attention? I want this fixed. It also said that he was ranked somewhere as one of the greatest singers of all time, but I can't remember. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.49.216.17 (talk) 04:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

71.141.245.255 (talk) 02:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Don't worry. It was changed back.

INSTRUMENTS

SOMEBODY SHOULD NOTE DOWN THAT EVEN MANY PEOPLE SAW JIM AS A VOCALIST AND POET, HE PLAYED PIANO ON ORANGE COUNTY SUITE (THE LOST PARIS TAPES), PERCUSSION AT THE ISLE OF WRIGHT FESTIVAL (MARACAS) AND ON AMERICAN PRAYER (TAMBOURINE), AND HE ALSO PLAYED HARMONICA ON A BOOTLEGGED JIMI HENDRIX LIVE ALBUM (SUNSHINE OF YOUR LOVE). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.217.37.161 (talk) 09:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Please, use your full range of keyboard characters. No need to SHOUT! UnVerified, Speculative, possibly Delusional...? get Real. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Christopher Wells (talk • contribs) 03:58, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually John, most of what this guy says is true, but it would need sources. I have a recording with Morrison playing very rudimentary piano and singing the lyrics to "Orange County Suite." It is also well known that Morrison played harmonica, but wasn't that good. The Sugarman book describes how Morrison "honked along" before he had confidence to sing in the band. Manzarek handled the vocals in those days. Morrison also was going to play harmonica on Roadhouse Blues before it was wisely decided to let an accomplished player (John Sebastian) handle the part. If any mention is made of Morrison's instrumental ability, his limitations in this dimension should also be noted. On the group's records, Morrison stuck to what he did best and quite well - sing. 98.216.14.212 (talk) 20:39, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

File:Jim Morrisonsinging.jpg

I have reinserted this FU photograph per WP:BOLD and WP:NFCC. Please see this for additional evidence. Thank you! Doc9871 (talk) 07:36, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Death

Per WP:UNDUE, we can't have one short paragraph on the "official" narrative followed by detailed accounts of several conspiracy theories. --John (talk) 07:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

UPDATE - I see that Morrison is listed in two categories that he should not be listed in: Category:Drug-related deaths and Category:Drug-related deaths in France. Here's the problem: we don't know for certain if Jim Morrsion died of a drug overdose or, say, a massive brain aneurysm. We will never know exactly how he died, and to include him in these categories (the first which includes Kurt Cobain, who died from... well, we know) is not warranted. Per WP:BRD, I'm going to remove them, but I'd like some input before I do if anyone is interested. Cheers :> Doc talk 07:54, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Why can't there be one short paragraph on the very limited information provided "officially," if is this is all there is? The is clearly an area that many are curious about. The data provided seems informative and its source noted, so I, as a reader, would rather see it than have it excised or truncated. I don't see how this merits flagging the section as disputed. If the assertion of bias is based only on the relative space allotted to the theories vs. the official version, I would prefer to see the flag removed.MacRutchik (talk) 05:39, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Some Confusion

The section on Morrison’s family ends with a claim that Morrison’s father made negative comments to Morrison regarding his music career after hearing the Doors’ first album. Interestingly, the source this is attributed to does not say this at all. Source 30 says that Morrison’s father was contacted by a concerned old friend of his who Jim had petitioned to assist with the funding of the group’s debut album. This would place the comments well before the release of the debut. Source 30 asserts that Morrison’s father made the comments in 1965, but later took pride in Jim’s success despite having very little contact with him. I’m not sure how this final section should be changed, but the way it reads, it isn’t entirely accurate, although the quotation is transcribed correctly. Maybe a couple of lines should be removed, and the rest should be put into the previous paragraph. I can try this. It would likely be accurate to say that George Morrison didn't support Jim's career choice, but these particular comments occurred much earlier, so information asserting that the comments were in response to the Doors' debut should be removed. Any thoughts? Also, the section on artistic influences has some excellent information on Morrison’s vocal influences, but the paragraph is awkwardly written. It could use some copy-editing. 98.216.14.212 (talk) 20:40, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality

I think the section on Jim Morrison's personal life is not neutral enough. It also needs more citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.250.116 (talk) 01:18, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Add citation needed tags where needed so we could find and add references. I'm removing the tag. Scieberking (talk) 14:11, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Influence Addition?

Is it worth putting John Morrison as a character influenced by Jim Morrison? I note on Hennigan's page, this is referenced from the Wrestlecrap Book of Lists by RD Reynolds. I don't own this book and can't easily get a hold of it (this is NOT the same reasoning as is used in WP:OWN), but can someone look this up and confirm this, and if so, add it? Lemon Demon (talk) 07:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I would say... no, it shouldn't be added. It's already in the wrestler's article, it was just a gimmick he used for awhile, and really doesn't have anything to do with Jim Morrison's article. I believe it was in here at one point, but was removed because of its needless triviality. Cheers :> Doc talk 07:52, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi! (It's me)

This is just to let everyone know that I'll be doing some edits (mainly related to grammar and formatting) to make this article a little better and try to get it ready for a GA review. I welcome any and all help with this. Evanh2008, Super Genius Who am I? You can talk to me... 10:03, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

A GA review? Yikes! The fair use image in the infobox that I uploaded and have fought to keep for a long time may come under renewed attack. Whatever. It's the only image I could find of him actually singing that isn't explicitly copyrighted. See you in the funny pages! Doc talk 06:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah. I wasn't aware of an issue with that. It seems to be quite clearly fair use as far as I can tell. Anyway, I think the article just about qualifies as "Good" as it stands now, though I'll be giving it a nice once- or twice-over before nominating. If you have any input or advice, I'm open to it. :-) Evanh2008, Super Genius Who am I? You can talk to me... 10:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I be watching at the very least - I put 3 out of the 7 images in the article. I hope to help with copyediting if it is needed, as I wrote most of the Miami Incident section of The Doors article and much of the New Haven incident section there. Glad you're dedicated to improving it, Evan! Doc talk 01:37, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Just wanted to pop in and say that I've still got this on my to-do list, though I haven't edited the article in forever. I'll try to do some further clean-up probably late next week. Evanh2008, Super Genius Who am I? You can talk to me... 03:03, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Front Page Image

I Think the image should be changed. I suggest the following image: jim-morrison-127677l, You can find it on google images. --121.219.231.111 (talk) 06:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC) Lachie Bennett - Lewis

The image you mention is very easily demonstrated to be copyrighted and not fit for inclusion. The non-free image of Morrison singing that is here now has been determined to best illustrate why Morrison was famous to begin with: as a singer. There are a lot of "glamor shots" of Morrison out there like the one you mention, and they all fail WP:NFCC. Doc talk 06:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand. I just thought that image best represented Morrison, and it is no doubt the most famous image of him. --101.160.181.203 (talk) 02:44, 5 February 2012 (UTC) Lachie Bennett - Lewis

Is there any chance we could get permission ?, Wiki could help maybe ?

--101.160.181.203 (talk) 05:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC) Lachie Bennett - Lewis

It's very doubtful that the copyright holder would give permission in a way that WP would accept, as I imagine it's owned by a company like Corbis. Maybe not that particular one, but maybe Getty Images or the like. These agencies will not consent to anyone using the image without payment, and they charge a nominal fee for any website to use the image for a specified period of time (or a flat rate for books, posters, etc.) - and no way can we do that here, even if a WP volunteer paid for it out of their own pocket. I wish I could help, but I'm almost completely certain that it's a no-win situation when it comes to including that image. Cheers... Doc talk 08:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank You for your consideration. --121.214.42.23 (talk) 02:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC) Lachie Bennett - Lewis

Longer Introduction

This article needs a longer introduction. I'm serious. The reader needs to know something about Morrison's unstable behaviour when they read the beginning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.88.97.42 (talk) 00:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The statement "Morrison reportedly had an I.Q. of 149" is utterly ridiculous. (a) Reported by whom? (b) How reliably? (c) So bleeding what? 149 is not all that unusual (from memory, about 2% of the population are at or above 148), (d) Does the IQ of everyone with an article in Wiki get a mention? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 16:04, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Jim Morrison's suspected death by heroin

The current article says Jim died(?) of a "suspected heroin overdose" is incorrect. As explained in the book "No One Here Gets Out Alive", the authors explain that Jim had a fear of needles, even going as far to sabotage his own U.S. Army physical through various methods. 65.87.33.160 (talk) 06:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Heroin doesn't need to be injected through a needle, and the anecdote you mention doesn't mean he didn't do it. It can be snorted for effect very effectively. In the same book it's made clear that Pamela Courson, the primary witness present, believes he did just that, and from her stash. Thus her guilt over his death. It's likely he died because of the combination of alcohol, his respiratory medication, and insufflated heroin. 76.127.201.198 (talk) 16:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

File:Jim-Morrison-Grave-1973-Paris.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Jim-Morrison-Grave-1973-Paris.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Jim-Morrison-Grave-1973-Paris.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 19:47, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Young Lion

It would be nice to have a fair use image of one of the more iconic photos from this session. I think its fair use, as its discussed in the article. Joel Brodsky was the photog, which ive expanded a bit.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 01:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Cite tags

This article, as of right now, is splattered with cite tags. I'm fine with the banner tag, or the section tags, or the inline tags, but not all 3. That's just silly. I don't know if this is supposed to be a joke or something, so I'm asking here first. I'll give this a week or so to see if anybody responds. If not, I'm going to remove the banner tag and section tags as they are redundant. The inline tags are helpful to know what specific concerns others have. Let me know what you think. 64.40.54.205 (talk) 22:03, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Please do. The article definitely needs citations, but The rakish fellow (talk · contribs) has gone quite tag-happy on this one. Doc talk 22:06, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Doc. Looks like The rakish fellow has been around, but hasn't responded. So I'm removing the tags. Everybody is free to revert if they think I was wrong. 64.40.57.92 (talk) 10:44, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

 Done 64.40.57.92 (talk) 10:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Who were these "Irish" ancestors?

I have always understood that both Morrison's parents were Scottish in origin - from the Highlands. So who were these Irish ancestors? I think it's a case of wishful thinking, and until a verifiable source for this claim can be found (ie, the so-called Irish family name) then wikipedia should not accept this claim as fact. I got my information from one of his biographers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.246.21 (talk) 19:02, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Alcoholism

Why does it say in the heading that his alcohol dependency started after the Doors got famous? I always read it happened years before, it would of had to of to of killed him at 27. Zdawg1029 (talk) 22:46, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

This source [1] certainly backs up what you are saying. All that is needed is for someone to change it and add a source like it. Doc talk 00:29, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to change it then.Zdawg1029 (talk) 17:20, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Bon Homme Richard photo

The photograph of Morrison and his father (also featured on George Stephen Morrison ) is labeled as having been taken in 1964. This can't be right -- Morrison looks like he's barely adolescent in the photograph. He'd have been twenty years old in 1964. Can someone check the source on this photo for an accurate date? Frank Mottley (talk) 01:21, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Regarding estate controversy

Any idea what finally happened to his estate? Are any of the Morrisons or Coursons alive as of Oct 2013? Doubt it, since even their children would have been grandparents today. 86.41.93.162 (talk) 19:48, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Last I heard, Jim has living siblings, and plenty of contemporaries who are in their sixties. - Slàn, Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:35, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, when I said Morrisons/Coursons I was referring to Jim's & Pam's parents, respectively, who I presume are all long dead. Since Pam's parents ended up inheriting everything, I assume upon their death the estate passed on to Pam's siblings, if she had any. So the bottom line is, did Jim's estate ultimately return to the Morrison family (siblings, cousins, nephews/nieces and whatnot) or is still owned by Pam's relatives? 143.239.65.254 (talk) 12:28, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

The "royalties and earnings" of his estate were split between Morrison's and Courson's parents at least (as reported) as far back as 1980.[2] Doc talk 12:47, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

"Legend of the Lizard" a musical play

"Legend of the Lizard" was a musical performed at the Lyceum Theatre in San Diego (now closed) about 10 years ago in which the lead character was intended to be accepted as Jim Morrison. The music was the Doors music. When the play was over the off-stage band played "Light My Fire" as the audience exited the theatre (and then continued to its end as a handful of us lingered. Anyone aware the shows' writer, director, producer, et cetera. I'm looking to see if it is still being produced, and where!76.171.190.27 (talk) 02:13, 22 February 2014 (UTC)Don V

I'm not seeing anything on it when searching on Google. This probably means that the play fails the WP:GNG. Lots of people put on plays, but unless they're notable they won't make it here. Doc talk 06:02, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Theory

The theory that heroin could be mistaken for cocaine or the other way round is far-fetched. The two, I suppose, smell differently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montananevadagirl (talk • contribs) 15:50, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

You'd think that. But unless one actually insufflated it, they wouldn't know the difference in "smell", would they? Heroin in powdered form can be as just as white in appearance as cocaine. It more likely will have an off-white-tan color; but if one was told it was coke, it would be very easy to mistake a line of dope for a line of coke. FTR: good dope smells like "vitamins", and good coke smells like gasoline. So I've heard... Doc talk 05:46, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, pure cocaine is odorless (Smith, below); if it has any smell all (that humans could detect), it would be from whatever it was cut with (or maybe from solvents used in crude processing). You couldn't get away with selling coke that smelled. Anyone who's snorted a fair amount of the stuff would be suspicious of powder that smelled at all, especially like vinegar. I have, off and on in the late 70s and early 80s, and never was it "pure", and I've an excellent sense of smell.

"Cocaine is an odorless white crystalline powder ...," Smith, Frederick P., editor (2004); Handbook of Forensic Drug Analysis. Burlington, MA, Elsevier Academic Press, p. 235. Accessed 2015-05-28.

Common street heroin -- black, brown, tan -- tends to have a sour, commonly vinegary, smell, but pure white heroin is nearly odorless. (Sources: multiple online forums; couldn't find anything in Smith, and I've never been anywhere near the stuff.)

I suspect this misperception derives from the scene in Pulp Fiction (1994) wherein Mia Wallace happens upon Vincent Vega's stash of "madman" heroin in his coat pocket and, presumably taking it to be cocaine, snorts a line with near-fatal consequences. (Setting off the most intense and exciting storyline in the film, imo.) But this may be stretching the reality of the film; Mia regularly snorts coke, as shown in two previous scenes that take place during the same evening (in her bedroom before she leaves with Vincent, and in the restroom at Jack Rabbit Slim's) And Vincent's stash is tan or light brown, definitely not white. On the other hand, maybe Mia is the sort who'll snort anything she thinks will get her "high."

Cheers,

Rico402 (talk) 02:02, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

PS: The "vitamins" and "gasoline" comment is pure rubbish. Whoever told you that was either grossly misinformed or having you on. Rico402 (talk) 02:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Miami

I personally know for a fact that he did "it" ..anyone who cares to dispute it speak up because this particular rhetorical discussion never gets old although there seems to be a distinct prevalence of apathy regarding his true nature in the article..sign of the times I guess..he had no musical talent..his poetry has never been published as far as I know except in private..he also has the distinction of being the only major rock star who wasn`t a materialistic capitalist..he checked out with exactly what he left home with..two cardboard boxes...one with a change of clothes..the other filled with paperback books. 24.240.171.194 (talk) 23:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

The only thing that counts here is what is written in reliable sources, If you can cite any of that then it may be worthwhile to continue. You don't seem to know too much since you don't realize that he had several books published.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

The statement "he had no musical talent" renders all of your other observations worthy of great skepticism, IP editor. We have this concept here on Wikipedia called "citing reliable sources", which you should do from now on. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:47, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Morrison's death: The fantastical claims of Sam Bernett

Do we really need the fantastical claims of Sam Bernett, as related in an article for the British tabloid the Daily Mail, included in this article? ("Death," Paragraph 5) There seems to plenty of support for the argument that Morrison died in his apartment of heart failure brought on by a heroin overdose. His girlfriend Pamela Courson was a regular user, and was with him in the apartment the night he died. She said they'd snorted heroin together that night. Morrison was not a regular user, and "China White," a particularly potent variety of the drug was widely available in Paris at the time. Maybe he knowingly snorted the drug, which seems likely, as he knew Courson was a regular user; or he may have mistook it for cocaine. ("Good heroin. Looks like cocaine in small amounts, but is actually kind of brown. It is a snortable form." --"china white," Urban Dictionary, Def. #2. Richard Head, June 17, 2003. Accessed 2015-05-28.) In any case, Courson said he became ill and vomited blood. He may have had a bleeding ulcer, given his excessive drinking, and it's common for people to become nauseous and vomit after snorting narcotics. (I puked from the IV morphine given to me after spinal surgery.) According to Courson, he then felt better and decided to have a bath; she went to sleep. Courson has given various accounts re Morrison's death -- junkies are notorious liars -- but this account, given to Danny Sugerman and Alain Ronay, rings true.

So could we PLEASE delete the material from the Daily Mail article, "The shocking truth about how my pal Jim Morrison REALLY died?" Or at least scale it back. In it, club manager Sam Bernett claims those who know the truth were "sworn to secrecy." Isn't that always the case when highly-dubious conspiracy theories are promulgated?

Cheers, Rico402 (talk) 04:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Support removing Daily Mail/Bernett claims. The accounts of Ronay, Faithful and Courson, minus a few details, all line up. The publicity-seeker (Bernett) in the Mail's account does not. No way could all of those people have stayed quiet about seeing Jim. I don't consider his account credible. I think the Bernett claim, sourced to his book, merits only a clause in the following sentence(s) about conspiracy theories. Something like, "conspiracy theories have emerged over the years, such as Bernett, who claimed in (year) that Morrison OD'ed in his nightclub." - CorbieV^☊☼ 18:51, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes & No. While removing the dailymail reference is a good idea, as we have better(such as Classicrock*) that give a more complete accounting, Bernett's claims are not dubious. Indeed Patrick Chauvel was there and has corroborated Bernett's central claims.* I have edited this article(my first time apart from including info on documentaries on Morrison) in the hopes of rightly reflecting that Bernett's central claim, is not just his own. Lastly, from what I've read, it appears that Bernett's story and Faithfull's are both (largely) compatible. Bernett tells the story from: Club to Car, while Faithfull tells the story of: Apartment to Bathtub. With the only truly missing part of the puzzle being the story of what happened between the Car and the Apartment door. Although in saying that, I do have a caveat about Faithfull's account and tend to support Roger Steffens* account of Faithfull/Breteuil's final encounters with Morrison over Faithfull's recent publicity story itself. Roger also did TV interviews that I've seen in documentaries and are, if you're interested, already listed in the article.

Here's the classic rock reference*

https://web.archive.org/web/20141202064417/http://classicrock.teamrock.com/features/2014-11-10/l-a-woman-and-the-last-days-of-jim-morrison

What follows is my recent edits to the article, I also included a bit on Talitha Getty as the same 'murderer'(Breteuil's smack) is reported to have killed both of them, which I think warrants inclusion into the article for the obvious historical context reason.He claims that Morrison came to the club to buy heroin for Courson, used some himself and died in the bathroom, his body, with the help of Patrick Chauvel then moved back to the rue Beautreillis apartment and was placed into the bathtub by the two drug dealers, nicknamed ‘Le Chinois’ and ‘Le Petit Robert’, from whom Morrison had purchased the heroin. Bernett also claimed everyone in the club who has seen Morrison was then sworn to secrecy and that some of the witnesses immediately left the country. There have been many other conspiracy theories surrounding Morrison's death but are less supported by witnesses than are the accounts of Ronay and Courson.

The same batch of French Connection heroin, supplied by Jean De Breiteuil's two dealers, that Marianne Faithfull claims killed Jim Morrison, is also implicated in the death of actress, style icon and and prior lover of Breiteuil, Talitha Getty. Who died 11 days after Jim Morrison, of an overdose in Rome.

I've compressed the section a bit more. I still think it's too much attention for Bernett. Ronay, Courson, and Faithfull's explanations line up better, and they really have/had nothing to gain in saying what they did. - CorbieV^☊☼ 21:10, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

In your edit summary you regard Bernett's account as "BS", you obviously have a strong personal feeling towards this matter. Not least of which is seen when you claim that "they really have/had nothing to gain in saying what they did.",, when to run through them. They all had something to gain. (1) Ronay had something to gain as he helped cover-up the truth, bribed a french official to look the other way. (2) Varda organized the "doctor" that forged his death certificate. A doctor who has since vanished(probably never existed in the first place), again a criminal offense. (3) Courson was an addict and was probably just more concerned with how to speed up getting her next fix so lied constantly about what happened. (4) Faithfull had her 2014 revelation of remembering just prior to the release of her new book/album or whatever she was peddling along with her well timed morrison revelations. So profit motive is there. None of them seem to have had the slightest desire to get justice for Morrison and put an end to Breteuil's murderous drug empire.

I digress, We need to (1) include John Densmore's(the doors drummer) interview were he states that he believes Jim died in the club. An interview given before Bernett's book mind you.

(2) Include Roger Steffens account, that puts Faithfull in the vicinity, I've seen documentary interviews he gave.

We also need to (3) include the documentary interview of what I beleive is Le Petit Robert. Who also discusses lifting Morrison out of the club/"on his back".

31.200.172.50 (talk) 20:45, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Angry IP editor, please comment on content, not contributors. The priority here is the 'pedia. You are deleting mention of the people who were there on the day he died. And if you want to rule out what junkies said, you'll have to cut a lot of the sourcing in this, including your own. The Bernett story simply lacks credibility, and you are the one who looks to be pushing an agenda here. Still, we've included it, but there's no reason to give it more space than it deserves. Source things to WP:RS and WP:V, avoid undue weight, and discuss here first before promoting this Bernett stuff. Thanks. - CorbieV^☊☼ 22:43, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea how you got the idea that I'm "angry", that's a false characterization. Secondly, the manner in which you have edited the page and have decided to frame the presenting of the Bernett story (i.e that he overdosed in the club and was carried out), glaring shouts out that you're injecting your own feelings (your earlier "BS" remark) into the article. I have since added yet another reference(an interview with Patrick Chauvel) that largely corroborates Bernett's central claim. Yet you have consistently attempt to present Bernett's claim as a conspiracy theory, and uncorroborated. Why?

178.167.152.146 (talk) 16:51, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

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Mary Werebelow or whoever she is

I thought that stuff was deemed not credible, or not relevant, long ago. At this point, anyone coming forward needs third-party corroboration and some indication of notability. Poofdragon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), an interview with a human-interest columnist in a local paper, blog or fanzine, is simply not WP:RS. There are also other inaccurate things you are trying to insert based on these unreliable sources, and some are rather biased and bring up WP:BLP concerns. Inserting bare urls to those sorts of inadequate sources is not helpful, nor is removing WP:RS-sourced content that has been vetted by the attorneys of legit publishing houses. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 22:15, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

[[User:CorbieVreccan| Mary Werebelow was a very important relationship. She was listed as a relationship prior but it was deleted without explanation. I linked solid references in books that she was well known alto you wrote "Mary Werebelow or whoever she is". https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Morrison&diff=697163101&oldid=697090314 Who can put this information back if verified? I did provide reliable sources on Mary Werbelow. It was not discussed prior altho it was just deleted by you and I undid: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Morrison&diff=next&oldid=721009584 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Morrison&diff=697163101&oldid=697090314 It is fact that she was a serious girlfriend and a simple search of Mary Werbelow and Jim Morrision will show this information exists in over 8 books.</ref>https://books.google.com/books?id=HjPcWkEPSR8C&pg=PT194&dq=jim+morrison+mary+werbelow&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAqZWQ8ufMAhWGHT4KHfeEDhsQ6AEIOzAF#v=onepage&q=jim%20morrison%20mary%20werbelow&f=false</ref></ref>https://books.google.com/books?id=4cuVn1VUBMEC&pg=PT106&dq=jim+morrison+mary+werbelow&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAqZWQ8ufMAhWGHT4KHfeEDhsQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=jim%20morrison%20mary%20werbelow&f=false</ref></ref>https://books.google.com/books?id=4cuVn1VUBMEC&pg=PT106&dq=mary+werbelow+jim+morrison&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7wp-28ufMAhUCET4KHd6mCiAQ6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=mary%20werbelow%20jim%20morrison&f=false</ref> </ref>https://books.google.com/books?id=XtxLBAAAQBAJ&pg=PP14&dq=mary+werbelow+jim+morrison&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7wp-28ufMAhUCET4KHd6mCiAQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=mary%20werbelow%20jim%20morrison&f=false</ref></ref>https://books.google.com/books?id=_oRdvoEOoXMC&pg=PA34&dq=jim+morrison+mary+werbelow&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAqZWQ8ufMAhWGHT4KHfeEDhsQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=jim%20morrison%20mary%20werbelow&f=false</ref></ref>https://madameask.com/2014/10/06/interview-with-paul-ferrara-doors-photographer</ref>Poofdragon (talk) 06:02, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

"Manzarek says all the guys in film school were in love with Mary. She was gorgeous, and sweet on top of that. "She was Jim's first love. She held a deep place in his soul." The Doors' 11-minute ballad The End, Manzarek says, originally was "a short goodbye love song to Mary." (The famous oedipal parts were added later.) Poofdragon (talk) 19:04, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Go see The End (The Doors song) for the lyrics. We don't need them posted here. It's a WP:Copyvio and against WP policy.

This stuff about high school and college girlfriends, who, no offense intended, are notable only for having dated Morrison, are only worth a footnote in this article. The relationships section should only briefly describe, and then link to, the articles about people he was involved with who are WP:NOTABLE. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 05:25, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

CorbieVreccan has many edits in Patricia Kennealy's wikipedia page but on Jim Morrison's page it cannot be a one-party account. Jim had plenty of flings but never spent a significant of time, more than 2 weeks, with any woman between Mary Werbelow and Pamela Courson. These two women were acknowledged by Morrison's bandmates and family. Pamela Couson used Jim Morrison's last name with his knowledge and he named her the sole heir to his will. It would be a great exaggeration to call any other women in those times "girlfriends" as it is not documented that Jim Morrison did. Poofdragon (talk) 19:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

reinserting final paragraph of section about Morrison's death

"Clpo13" removed the final paragraph several minutes ago. They ask why should it be there? It should be there because it cites a source that is reliable for Wikipedia: the book Wonderland Avenue by Danny Sugerman. The book even has its own Wikipedia article. Sugerman, who knew Jim Morrison personally and did drugs with him, says the following in that paragraph that should be restored: The exact circumstances of Morrison's death don't matter to anyone who did drugs or drank with Morrison. The circumstances shouldn't matter to Doors fans who never met him but they use drugs or drink too much as a tribute to his memory. What matters is that heart attack shmart attack, Morrison died from substance abuse, and if someone who never met him imitates his behavior, then let that person go ahead and save yourself.

Multiple editors have reverted this. Maybe you could add it to the article about the book or the author. zzz (talk) 01:53, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

No, you are the only editor who has reverted it since I removed the part about Danny Sugerman's "own descent into heroin addiction during the decade that followed his friend Morrison's death." Ok, so that shifted the focus to Sugerman's life.

But the current edit maintains the focus on Morrison's life, and the paragraph in question consists of facts, not opinions. Sugerman and many others who knew Morrison personally believe that exactly how he died doesn't matter. What matters is that he died from self-abuse. Ray Manzarek said the same, but I didn't include his statement. They had witnessed their friend's self-abuse for many months before he died but could do nothing about it. You are approving the article's inclusion of a questionable story about a Parisian nightclub owner who did not know Morrison personally and claims to have seen his dead body removed from the nightclub illegally. That man did not even claim to have witnessed Morrison's behavior. Danny Sugerman did witness it for a long time prior to the mysterious night in Paris. He authored or co-authored two books that this article uses as sources. Both have Sugerman's statements about Morrison's friends not caring exactly what happened in Paris on July 3, 1971. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.183.42.66 (talk) 02:44, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

See WP:BRD. No consensus for this "not caring exactly what happened"/"died from self-abuse [?]" tabloid-style moralising. Opinions that "exactly how he died doesn't matter" by definition have no place in a section about how he died. Btw I wasn't impressed with the Parisian nightclub owner, or Marianne Faithfull's version either, for that matter, but my opinion is irrelevant. zzz (talk) 02:55, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Let's not get mixed up. "Tabloid-style moralizing" means including stories from unreliable people such as the nightclub owner. These stories allegedly can help millions of people understand exactly how narcotics can kill you. The unreliable people are getting on in years and hope to make money from their stories about a very long time ago. Book publishing companies offer money even when the National Enquirer says your story doesn't appeal to Enquirer readers. This is the exact opposite of the attitude of people "not caring exactly what happened" because they accepted long ago that their friend had "died from self-abuse." They are the last people on Earth who would consider circulating a questionable story from a person who happened to be in Paris on July 3, 1971. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.183.42.50 (talk) 21:19, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

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Pianist and guitarist ?

Seriously, folks, can Jim be considered being a pianist and a guitarist ? As I wrote in my edit summary of August 21, as far as I know, he has never played either guitar or piano, both on record and/or live. The short improvised passage we can see and hear in the movie Feast of Friends does not entitle him to be named as a pianist. Can anybody bring reliable proofs that he has really played guitar and / or piano during his career w/ The Doors ?

What's the use to mislead the reader, especailly young ones ? --Bibliorock (talk) 22:29, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

• I have removed the pianist and guitarist listings from the infobox. Both Densmore and Manzerek were specific in their books that his inability to play those instruments led to his offer to split the royalties evenly. Jusdafax 03:57, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Merci beaucoup :-) --Bibliorock (talk) 18:41, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Guitar no, but he did play rudimentary piano on a version of Orange County Suite that concluded Mystic Man: The Uncut Soft Parade Sessions 1968-69, a bootleg album. He played well enough to alternate between two chords. This was more significant than the Feast of Friends performance. However, since he did not play on any official recordings, I'm not sure it warrants being mentioned in the article. What do you think? Mentioning harmonica also seems questionable to me. Tidewater 2014 (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Death

I tried cleaning this section up a while back, but its grown exponentially again, so I have removed all the non-notable rumours and speculation. If it isn't reported in multiple reliable secondary sources, please leave it out. zzz (talk) 00:34, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

You have removed all the reliably referenced modern revelations, why? We have 2 independent references in relation to Marianne Faithful that you have totally erased.

185.51.72.144 (talk) 23:41, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

We really need to work on the Death section, as not even the police buy this "he died of heart failure" line.

What follows is my last major stab at it, but unless someone does a better job, I'll be coming back as time permits, to make the following more chronological, coherent and concise. -

Morrison joined Courson in Paris in March 1971, at an apartment he had rented on the rue Beautreillis (in the 4th arrondissement of Paris on the Right Bank). In letters he described going for long walks through the city, alone. During this time, he shaved his beard and lost some of the weight he had gained in the previous months. He died on July 3, 1971 at age 27. It was claimed by Courson, that she found him in a bathtub at his apartment. The official cause of death was listed as heart failure, although no autopsy was performed, as despite it not being a legal necessity under French law, it is the normal or orthodox procedure when a young person dies suddenly. No autopsy was conducted in Morrison's particular case, due to the medical examiner having being bribed by director Agnes Varda, who had done so under the auspices of believing the story Courson told her, specifically that she and Morrison had not socialized with anyone else that night, nor did they speak to, or leave the apartment since coming back from the movies at around midnight.

In the epilogue of the revised issue of No One Here Gets Out Alive, Hopkins and Sugerman write that, aided at times, with the help of Ronay and Agnès Varda, Courson lied to the police who responded to the death scene. Later in her deposition, telling them amongst other things that Morrison never took drugs and unexplainably fabricating on her own, the story that she was Morrison's cousin. In the epilogue to No One Here Gets Out Alive, Hopkins says that 20 years after his death, Morrison's friends in Paris, photographer Alain Ronay and director Agnes Varda had broken their silence and given the detailed account of the events as they remember them; Courson had phoned Alain Ronay for help at approximately 8 am, and with the assistance of Varda, they rang for medical attention that then swiftly arrived at Morrison's apartment, before they themselves could get across the city. With Ronay and Varda's arrival, Courson was to tell them in private that she had called them only "shortly" after Morrison's death and that she and Morrison had taken heroin after a night of drinking. Morrison had been coughing badly, had gone to take a bath, and vomited blood." Courson would claim that Morrison appeared to recover and so she then went to sleep. When she awoke, Morrison was unresponsive, so she called Alain Ronay who then with the help of Varda, rang for medical attention.

Believing her story as true, Varda was eventually to use her connections amongst the upper-classes, to bribe a medical doctor to sign the document that stated James Douglas Morrison died of "heart failure". However, with the passage of years, the absence of an autopsy left many open questions regarding the cause of Morrison's death. In Wonderland Avenue, Danny Sugerman discussed his encounter with Courson after she returned to the United States, between 1971 to 1974. According to Sugerman's account of their conversations, while Courson frequently claimed that Morrison had died of an accidental heroin overdose, "snorting what he believed to be cocaine". Sugerman would later heavily caution, that Courson, who would herself die of Heroin in 1974, was an exceedingly unreliable person and prone to giving numerous contradictory versions of Morrison's death.

Furthermore, amongst the initiated, it is known that placing someone who has overdosed on Heroin in a bathtub of water at extremes of hot or cold, is a popular last-ditch revival tactic suggested by heroin dealers. With the rationalization being that it can adrenalize/shock the respiratory system back into action. Although sound in theory, its effectiveness becomes increasingly questionable when the drug user has been unresponsive for a large amount of time, along with the frequently overlooked concern of a fatal relapse event, upon the initial rush of adrenaline subsiding. Naturally, Courson, being of slight build, would have been incapable of lifting Morrison into the bathtub on her own.

In 2007, Sam Bernett, a former manager of the Rock 'n' Roll Circus nightclub, released a (French) book titled "The End: Jim Morrison", alleging that Morrison overdosed on heroin in his nightclub. He claims that Morrison went to the club to buy heroin for Courson, used some himself and died in the bathroom, and that his body was then moved by Vietnam Veteran Patrick Chauvel, who independently corroborates the move, along with two unidentified drug dealers, nicknamed ‘Le Chinois’ and ‘Le Petit Robert’ out the back of the Nightclub so as to prevent a scandal for the club and then, bundled into a taxi with the two dealers, which then drove to Morrison's rue Beautrellis apartment, passing several hospitals along the way. Apart from Chauvel, who had just seen a lot of "weird" stuff in Vietnam and couldn't say 100% that Morrison was dead at this time due to how carefully the others had placed him in the car, one of the other surviving patrons at the club who state that they helped move Morrison in this comatose or dead condition, was interviewed in the documentary Rock Poet: Jim Morrison (2010).

According to Bernett, the heroin was ultimately supplied by the aristocrat Jean de Breiteuil, the son of a French news magnate and an individual that has also been implicated in the overdose of model Talitha Getty, similarly, in July 1971. In his 2007 interviews Bernett revealed that the then girlfriend of de Breteuil, singer Marianne Faithfull was also in the club the night of Morrison's overdose but "Marianne never mentioned Jim again," Bernett says. "She won't talk about what happened in the club to this day." A spokesperson for the French police in 2007 stated that the new evidence will have to be considered.

This account of Bernett, is corroborated by a 1986 audio interview, between radio host Roger Steffens and Doors drummer John Densmore. In 1986 Steffens recounts that two days after Morrison's death, he was told by a shaking Marianne Faithfull and her lover Jean de Breiteuil in Marrakesh, of the details of Morrison's demise. With both Faithfull and Breiteuil having been in Morrison's apartment after his return from the nightclub and seeing him dead in the bathroom, a scene which motivated them to flee the country, flying to Tangier the next day and then on to Marrakesh, where Steffens happened to be living in 1971. Faithfull would consistently decline to comment on this thereafter until 2014. Steffens remarked that he found it amazing how Faithfull had ceased to publicly discuss the tragedy from 1971 up to the time of recording, 1986.

After decades of "no-comment", in 2014 Marianne Faithfull made the following claim; that she was awoken by a late-night phone call from an unspecified person and her boyfriend, de Breiteuil, then manically rushed over to Morrison's apartment "alone", on the night of his death. Faithfull while not specifically commenting on what Steffens nor Samual Bennett have written, has instead simply claimed that it was her boyfriend de Breiteuil who alone travelled to Morrison's apartment, as following this call, she claims to have been relatively uninterested, took some sedative drugs and fell back asleep.

However, as early as the 1990s Cameron Watson, an American working as a DJ in Paris in 1971, would give the account that while working in the Parisian nightclub La Bulle in July 1971. Two well dressed patrons, one of which being a well known drug dealer and the other being "Marianne Faithfull" had arrived in the early hours at his La Bulle club and told Watson, that Jim Morrison had just died. Watson, not keeping the secret then announced this over the P.A system to the few remaining patrons at the club. This was the first public announcement of Morrison's demise and which therefore seeded the beginning of the local parisian rumors, about a week before the official announcement of Morrison's death was confirmed. In his 1992 recollecting, Ronay states that rumors started by Marianne Faithfull had been circulating Paris before the official announcement.

Although silent on all these matters, in Marianne Faithfull's 2014 retelling, she states that upon returning from Morrison's apartment, De Breteuil beat her violently.

In the April 1992 issue of the French Magazine Paris Match, photographer Alain Ronay recounts the circumstances surrounding Morrison's death from approximately 8am onward. This multi-page feature publicized, amongst other details, such as, it being Ronay and director Agnes Varda who, upon Courson's request, were the first to call the emergency services. That when they had arrived, the fire service/first responders stated that Morrison had definitely been dead longer than the 1-2 hours that Courson was suggesting and that they were simply notified far too late for there to have been any hope of a successful Cardiopulmonary resuscitation/CPR.

While Courson would not directly engage with explaining this at the time, she did receive a phone call from Jean Breiteuil soon thereafter, who given the circumstances, was calling to find out how Courson had handled passing the death off with as innocent a story a possible, by selectively feeding narratives to the officials and her friends, that did not mention heroin, him, nor the Rock and Roll circus. Moreover, when the authorities had left the apartment, hours after 8 am, Ronay recounts that it was then that two individuals came to enter Morrison's apartment, "Jean", the "tall one" and the short one, "Jean-Louis". Agnes Varda recognized Jean as the "Count"/de Breiteuil, a known "drug-dealer", whereas the full identity of "Jean-louis" is not revealed. Together with Courson this trio again scoured the apartment for drug-paraphernalia. When asked by Ronay, if there was anything else in the house, Courson stated that "the first thing" she did was to flush all her own personal belongings, that might be incriminating, before the arrival of the fire-service medics.

Apart from three stories; Cameron Watson's account that 2 individuals had entered his club late at night and one of them told Watson that Morrison was dead, Marianne Faithfull's 2014 claim that De Breteuil received a late night call, immediately rushed over, and then on returning beat her and they then "immediated" flew off to Marrakesh, and finally, Roger Steffen's 1986 audio interview. It is not known with a a high level of certainty if de Breteuil had already been in Morrison's apartment before being witnessed arriving there some time after 8am, by both Ronay and Varda. Although in his 1992 recollecting of events, Ronay does state that De Breteuil was called by Courson at some point before Ronay and the authories had arrived. Moreover, upon arriving when the coast-was-clear and being denied entry into the apartment by Ronay and Agnes Varda, as to "not endanger the situation", De Breteuil aggressively dismissed their concerns by revealing, "Look, she was the one who called me." "I know everything. I really do." Once admitted entry at Courson's insistence, De Breteuil took Courson aside and spoke privately with her which was then followed with his partner Jean-Louis and Courson proceeding to complete a more thorough sweep of the house. De Breteuil similarly told Ronay he was leaving for Marrakesh to lay-low. A travel plan that is supported by Roger Steffens' earlier 1986 account, that implicates Faithfull as having been in Morrison's apartment.

In 2014, Marianne Faithfull stated that “Everybody connected to the death of this poor guy is dead now,”. “Except me.”

Over the next few hours and days, Courson's characteristically capricious actions, would exacerbate both Ronay and Varda, including; the burning of "drug stories" that may have incriminated Morrison or Courson, the inappropriately timed desire to steal the wardrobed fur-coat that belonged to the owner of the apartment Morrison had been renting, enquiring about if she could have Morrison-a young man's body-cremated and the dismissal of the strong recommendations of the stay-at-home-mortician, to not sleep alone in the same room as Morrison's iced body for the 3 or so days that it would take between his death and Ronay securing a plot for Morrison in Père Lachaise Cemetery.

At his funeral, according to a Madame Colinette, who was at Père Lachaise Cemetery mourning the recent loss of her husband, the ceremony was "pitiful", with Madame Colinette stating that several of the attendants muttered a few words, threw a few flowers over the casket, then went about leaving hastily, within minutes, as if their lives depended upon it. Those who attended included Alain Ronay, Agnès Varda, Bill Siddons (Doors manager), Courson, and Robin Wertle (Morrison's Canadian private secretary at the time for a few months).

During the production of the Oliver Stone, The Doors (film), Courson's father, "Corky" Courson, agreed to hand over the rights for the film with the one condition that his daughter Pamela Courson, would not be shown to have been involved in Morrison's death.

Boundarylayer (talk) 18:29, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Quiet days in Paris by Moddeman

The once fairly well corroborated article by Rainer Moddemann of the Doors Quarterly, and now author of a larger book published on the subject, has a number of notable errors, including in relation to who Jomo and the Smoothies were. Otherwise it is, ok. This is just a heads-up to other editors, that while it pieced together some of what was known in 1999, it is not gospel.

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20160302203954/http://home.arcor.de:80/doorsquarterlyonline/quietday.htm

Boundarylayer (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

grave plot was leased

My understanding is that Jim's grave was actually obtained on a 30-year lease. When the remaining Doors had a televised reunion concert - I'm guessing around the late 1980s - Ray Manzarek was asked about the possibility of Jim's remains being removed. His reply was that Jim wasn't going anywhere, because he was the fourth most-visited site in Paris. My question is - since Jim is still in Pere Lachaise, does anyone have information on an agreement that allowed him to stay? Elsquared (talk) 07:57, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

The first mention I've ever come across that the grave was on a 30-year-lease (which seems bizarre!) is your post. Do you have any reliable sources for it? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:32, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for the long delay in responding, I don't check my Wiki writing often. I've known about the lease for years, the only source I could remember was the reunion concert I mentioned previously. I did a quick search to find some sources, and the following all mention the lease: The Telegraph (London, England); ABC News (U.S. network); and the Daily News (New York City newspaper). The Telegraph article mentions the grave was leased "in perpetuity", but I'd never heard of a permanent lease before. (I've never added an external link to a Wiki article before, so I hope I did it correctly.) Elsquared (talk) 00:19, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110610151444/http://www.biography.com/listings/episode_details.do?episodeid=244810&airingid=260095 to http://www.biography.com/listings/episode_details.do?episodeid=244810&airingid=260095

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:40, 22 April 2017 (UTC)