Talk:Jill Mortimer

This page was proposed for deletion by PamD (talk · contribs) on 27 March 2021.

This article was nominated for deletion on 28 March 2021. The result of the discussion was redirect.

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Full name

I can find three sources for Jillian Wendy Mortimer as her full name: a profile of the by-election campaign by Paul Routledge in The Mirror, [1] the by-election nomination papers,[2] and a Hambleton District Council election result in 2019.[3] Fences&Windows 07:17, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is not her birth name, however. It's clear she married a Mr William Mortimer (unless she just happened to be born a Mortimer as well as found one to marry).[4] Solipsism 101 (talk) 12:29, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Term start

Mortimer was elected on 6 May, that's when the votes were cast. However, we have an infobox that has a field saying "Assumed office". Mortimer did not assume office on 6 May. She doesn't assume office until she is sworn in to the Commons.

But rather than quibbling over when Mortimer "Assumed office", can't we just change the label in the infobox to when she was elected? Bondegezou (talk) 10:03, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mortimer cannot have been elected on 6 May, as the result of the elections was not known until 7 May. Therefore until the result is announced the person cannot take office. If it was the case that it is taken to be before the election result is announced then there could be claims that every candidate was an MP until one winner was announced. It cannot be the election day it has to be the day of the declaration as it is not known who the MP is until the results are known. Sparkle1 (talk) 12:03, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If I died today, but my body wasn't discovered until tomorrow, it would still say today on my death certificate. Mortimer was elected on 6 May, notwithstanding that we didn't know that until all the votes had been added up.

When she takes office is different to when she was elected. You're using them synonymously when they are different things. Joe Biden was elected weeks before he took office, for example.

So, when does Mortimer take office? I think technically that doesn't happen until she is sworn in to the House of Commons. But it's not a distinction that has much significance in UK politics, whereas I suspect the infobox template was designed for a US context where the is often a deliberate gap between election and taking office. Bondegezou (talk) 12:24, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Your dying analogy is comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing a definitive single event that occurs in one go, with a series of events that takes place over a period of time. Death is one single event, you die when you are dead, that is it. An election is a series of events, with the voting and declaration and taking up the office (sometimes this is a simultaneous event with the declaration but not always) as distinct events on a timeline. If you have a contest where multiple people take part in it and there is a delay in the results being known of the contest and it takes say a week to get the results you would not say that that the winner was the day of the contest but the date of the results. Take an art competition with a contest date on day 1, all the artists do their pieces and the next day, day 2, the judges come in and decide who is going to be the winner. The day after artists did their art the judges go this is the winner. You would not say that the winner was on the day the art was done. You would say the winner was from the day the winner was known. It is the same in this case. People went and put pieces of paper in a box on day 1 and later that day the counting of those pieces of paper began, but it took longer than the amount of time left in that day so it clicked over into day 2 and the result was then announced on day 2. You would not have said on day 1; "the winner and MP is x". As you would not have known the result. You would say; "the winner and MP is x." on day 2. You have to know the result to be able to declare the winner and take up being an MP. Sparkle1 (talk) 13:13, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the winner won the day the judges decided. I'm not certain your analogy is any better than mine!

This is Parliament's page about Peter Mandelson, a former MP of Hartlepool. It has that he was elected on 9 April 1992, the day of the general election. The result for Hartlepool was not, IIRC, announced until 10 April 1992. But it says he was elected on 9 April.

And here is the page for Jill Mortimer. It says she was elected 6 May. QED. Bondegezou (talk) 13:27, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't make logical sense though to say I was the MP the day before the world or anyone in it knew I was an MP. The person couldn't have walked into parliament (if it was in sessions) at 10 pm (when the polls closed) and been sworn in they would have been told to bugger off and wait for the result to be declared. It is not possible to be an MP until you know the result of the election. Sparkle1 (talk) 14:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting to be like debates about If a tree falls in a forest. The Parliament website says 6 May, and we should take that as definitive. PamD 14:33, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no parliament and MPs are elected during a period of no parliament like they are for a general election do we take it from the day of the election or the day they are declared or the day they are sworn in. Accuracy is key. We cannot simply say it is convenient to ake a source, we have to evaluate the accuracy of the source. Here you can't be an MP if you have not counted the votes. Sparkle1 (talk) 16:47, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sparkle1, you're the only won who is arguing against her having been elected on 6 May. If sources don't support you and other editors don't support you, you may have to accept that.

That said, I remain uncomfortable with the infobox wording being "Assumed office". Can we change that to "Elected"? Bondegezou (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

Is there any reason this article provides no picture of her? While her official portrait has not yet released, it seems strange to not provide one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pine~martin (talk • contribs) 11:15, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Someone has to provide a photo that we are allowed to use. Bondegezou (talk) 13:46, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, sorry for being useless :P — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pine~martin (talk • contribs) 19:10, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Jill mortimer photo 1.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:58, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]