Talk:Jigai

This article was nominated for deletion on 12 February 2013 (UTC). The result of the discussion was merge to Seppuku.

Was "Jigai" a method of suicide for women? Is it an english word that differs from japanese in meaning?

Entire article is based on incorrect information. Wikipedia isn't a dictionary and there is no point in having an article about a word. My recommendation is to add a section in an article called Japanese suicide, if such article exist. Vapour (talk) 19:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article contradicts itself left and right. Could someone sort it out, please? 24.142.58.5 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Dubious

Someone added a bunch of "sources" to this article, but none of them seriously validate the content of the article:

Hearn is a good read, and I have a great deal of respect for him, but he couldn't speak Japanese, and he rarely cited his sources. Additionally, his having discussed "jigai" as being the old Japanese word for suicide doesn't justify this article's claims to jigai being specifically a method of suicide employed by Japanese women.
Frédéric is a useful resource, but not everything he says is accurate.
Hosey wrote in "Black Belt" published by "Rainbow Publications" -- I'm sure it's a very well-renowned scholarly journal on classical Japanese history, but honestly I've never heard of it before.
Rij deals with the fictional work Madame Butterfly rather than with real history, and I suspect the author doesn't actually speak Japanese, since he (like all the others) has apparently misinterpreted the word "jigai" as meaning a specific method of suicide, rather than just a word for "suicide" in general.

elvenscout742 (talk) 10:40, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't provide any reason why you think "he couldn't speak Japanese", "he rarely cited his sources", "not everything he says is accurate", "the author doesn't actually speak Japanese", and " he (like all the others) has apparently misinterpreted the word". 124.85.228.56 (talk) 10:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(EDIT CONFLICT) Additionally, note that the Japanese translation of Hearn (the only hard copy I have on hand) gives "jigai" in square brackets as though to say "sic".p.240 The Japanese translation of Hearn's other essay "Bits of Life and Death" translates "Having fully accomplished his revenge, he kills himself." (my emphasis) as "復讐を首尾よく果たすと、自害したのである。".[1] elvenscout742 (talk) 11:05, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hearn himself admitted several times in his writings, and his wife wrote elsewhere, and countless authors have pointed out that he couldn't speak Japanese. I'll find a specific source if you like, but you need a source that says he could speak it if you want to violate the consensus here. He didn't cite a source in the essay you cited. Frédéric's encyclopedia is filled with little errors: one of them is apparently the one you are citing. I don't see why I should believe an author who doesn't know what "jigai" means could speak Japanese. elvenscout742 (talk) 11:11, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the vagueness of the above. It has been 7 years since I last read Kwaidan from start to finish. But see the first paragraph of "Butterflies": But never shall I be able to read Chinese, nor even Japanese; and the little Japanese poetry that I manage, with exceeding difficulty, to translate, contains so many allusions to Chinese stories of butterflies that I am tormented with the torment of Tantalus....[2] elvenscout742 (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, you didn't provide any reason why you think "as though to say "sic".

And the website you cited above (http://www.geocities.jp/widetown/) seems dubious to me.

In Wikipedia, its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors (WP:VERIFY), which means that it doesn't matter whether if you don't see why you should believe an author or whether if you've never heard it before. 124.85.228.56 (talk) 11:32, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying the person who translated it doesn't know what "jigai" means?? elvenscout742 (talk) 11:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm not saying that. 124.85.228.56 (talk) 11:33, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're attempting to re-define a word in a language that is spoken by over 120,000,000 people here. The website I pointed to is at worst written by a native speaker of this language: this can not be said of any of the sources you cite. (I also doubt it's just "some guy"'s translation of a huge body of Hearn literature.) elvenscout742 (talk) 11:44, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please find a Japanese dictionary written by specialists in the Japanese language and/or Japanese history that defines the word "jigai" the way you do. WP:BURDEN says the burden is on you here. elvenscout742 (talk) 11:45, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not attempting to re-define a word. This is the English Wikipedia. We don't have to use a Japanese dictionary. 124.85.228.56 (talk) 11:50, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, see page 14 of Lafcadio Hearn's Japan: "They were truly unintelligible to him. He never learned properly to read or write, much less speak. Japanese remained a delightfully alien tongue to him, though in time he and his wife evolved a kind of baby-talk combined from both languages, and eventually he mastered the kana syllabary and could send her notes."[3] elvenscout742 (talk) 07:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at AfD, temporary fix

There's been a temporary solution to this article to try and rebuild as an article on female ritual/honour suicide which falls outside seppuku (i.e. drowning and cut of throat), hence restoring the Women's history project tag. Nevertheless a merge to seppuku is still a possibility if the article fails to gain selfstanding status. A move of title will likely come soon. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:10, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]