Talk:Jewish prayer modes

The source for this article characterizes the "scales" as frameworks that hold many variant "modes" corresponding to various prayers and holidays -- and each mode includes some alterations of tones, as well as characteristic melodies and motifs. The article is a fairly bad summary of the source because it does not emphasize this modal construction. It would also do well to include some more up-to-date research. The source is from 1950! 174.46.244.130 (talk) 21:39, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is not accurate. I can't find my source just now, but the Jewish modes are not constructed the same as Western scales. At least one goes up and then down and has alterations of tones. They are named after the prayers in which they occur, such as adonoi molokh, and ahavah rabah, and so on. Each one is distinct.

Request for information. The article shows the magen avot as identical to a "natural" minor, i.e. no harmonic or melodic, both on the way up and on the way down. Are we sure that the leading note is never sharp? (Incidentally, someone should change "Ukranian" to "Ukrainian" in the Commons picture.) --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 16:13, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fundamentally flawed beyond topical details discussed here.

The problem with this entry goes far beyond the problematic and single source (indeed way too old and dated and no longer accepted as a source except for critical reading within a given era and zeitgeist and conceptual limitations of the time). There is a long bibliography available which is up to date. This article is so highly and fundamnetlly flawed there is no point in editing it or trying to improve it; it really needs to be removed and eventfully replaced by something completely different, accurate, systemic, evidence- and research-based. Indeed at least some of the research has been done but of which the author seems to be totally unaware. Even the I the further suggested readings are very old and problematic sources no longer considered to be of value expect for critical reading as historiography, and another one is not considered scholarly work. The whole thing from its basis needs to be re-done.

ATTENTION: I would like to redo this item but I need some help. Anyone who is willing to make initial contact with me regarding this, please do so. Many thanks. Pilcatbt (talk) 04:42, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome back to Wikipedia! Could you provide a link to the long bibliography, which you mentioned is available? Could you also direct specific critiques toward specific sources, so we better understand your objections? Ibadibam (talk) 03:06, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography related to Jewish Prayer Modes" (Ashkenazi only)

I hope I am responding correctly to the request (I need some help with the logistics of working here). An abbreviated list of the primary problems with this article to follow. For the time-being here is some selected bibliography (some of which needs to be read critically, so that the helpful aspects can be used; some of it is supporting readings needed in order to tackle the relevant methodological aspects and conceptual frameworks). It looks like I cannot figure out how to attach a word document (another refection of my need of help) so here it is in the body of the message:

Adler, Samuel. 1971. “Music in The American Synagogue: II,” Journal of Synagogue Music 3/4:15-21.
___. 1972. “Music in The American Synagogue: II,” Journal of Synagogue Music 4/3:3-13.
Adler, Israel. 1982. “Problems in the Studies of Jewish Music,” Proceedings of the World Congress on Jewish Music, Jerusalem 1978, Judith Cohen, ed. Tel-Aviv: The Institute for the Translation of Hebrew Literature:15-26.
Avenary, Hanoch. 1960. “The Musical Vocabulary of Ashkenazic Hazanim,” Studies in Biblical and Jewish Folklore, Raphael Patai, Francis Lee Utley and Dov Noy, ed. Bloomington: Indiana University Press:187-198.
___. 1971. “The Concept of Mode in European Synagogue Chant,” Yuval 2:11-21.
___. 1975. “The earliest Notation of Ashkenazi Bible Chant,” Journal of Jewish Studies 26:132-150.
___. 1979. Encounters of East and West in Music. Tel-Aviv: Tel Aviv University.
___. 1986-87. “Second Thoughts about the Configuration of a Synagogue Mode,” Orbis Musicae 9:11-16.
___. 1987. “The Aspects of Time and Environmnet in Jewish Traditional Music,” Israel Studies in Musicology 4:93-123.
Bayer, Bathja. 1968. “Hit’havuto Shel ‘Makam’ Bashir Hayisraeli (The Creation of a Makam in the Israeli Song),” Proceedings of a Conference on Eastern and Western Factors in Israeli Music (Yesodot mizrachiyim uma’araviyim bamusika beyisra’el) in Zichron Ya’akov, 1962, Michal Smoira, editor. Tel-Aviv: Israel Music Institute:74-84.
Breuer, Mordechai. 1980. “Review of Eric Werner A Voice Still Heard,” in Kiriat Sefer 54/3: 576-584 (in Hebrew)
Burstyn, Shai. 1999. “Inventing Musical Tradition: the Case of the Hebrew (Folk) Song.” Proceedings of the International Conference, Rethinking Interpretive Traditions in Musicology, Orbis Musicae 13:127-136.
Burstyn, Shai. 2008. “Shira chadasha-atika: moreshet Avraham Zvi Idelsohn vezimrey shorashim,” Kathedra 127: 113-144.
Carmi-Cohen, Dalia. 1964. “An Investigation into the Tonal Structure of the Maqamat,” International Folk Music Council 16:102-106.
Cohen, Daliah. 1969. “Patterns and Frameworks of Intonation,” Journal of Music Theory 13/1:66-92.
___. 1971. “The Meaning of the Modal Framework in the Singing of Religious Hymns by Christian Arabs in Israel,” Yuval 2:23-57.
Cohon, Baruch. 1950. “The Structure of the Synagogue Prayer-Chant,” Journal of the American Musicological Society 3/1:13-32.
Ephros, Gershon. 1976. “The Hazzanic Recitative: A Unique Contribution to our Music Heritage,” Journal of Synagogue Music 6/3:23-28.
Freed, Isador. 1958. Harmonizing the Jewish Modes. New York: The Sacred Music Press of the Hebrew Union College.
Friedmann, Aron. 1908. Der synagogale Gesang; eine Studie zum 100. Geburtstage Salomon Sulzer’s und 10. Todestage Louis Lewandowski’s (1904) nebst deren Biographien. Berlin: C. Boas Nachf.
Frigyesi, Judit and Laki, Peter. 1979/80. “Free-Form Recitative and Strophic Structure in the Hallel Psalms,” Orbis Musicae 7:43-80.
Frigyesi, Judit Laki. 1982-83. “Modulation as an Integral Part of the Modal System in Jewish Music,” Musica Judaica 5:53-71.
Frigyesi, Judit. 1993. “Preliminary Thoughts toward the Study of Music without Clear Beat: The Example of ‘Flowing Rhythm’ in Jewish Nusah,” Asian Music 24/2:59-88.
___. 2001. “Orality as Religious Ideal: The Music of East-European Jewish Prayer,” Yuval 7 - Studies in Honor of Israel Adler (Jerusalem: Magnes Press) 113-153.
___. 2002. “Orality as Religious Ideal; The Music of East-European Jewish Prayer,” Yuval 7:113-153.
___. 2003. “The Unique Character of Ashkenazi Synagogal Music: Homage to A. Z. Idelsohn,” Kenishta 2:147-166.
___.2010. “‘Traditional’ and ‘New’ music in the synagogue: aesthetic or religious decision?,” Jüdische Musik als Dialog der Kulturen und ihre Vermittlungsdimensionen Wege zur interreligiösen und interkulturellen Verständigung – Internationale Wissenschaftliche Tagung (Universität Potsdam in cooperation with the Abraham Geiger Kolleg), Potsdam.
Fuchs, Israel. 1969. “Some Thoughts on the Origin of Nuschaot,” Proceedings of the Cantors Assembly Convention:3-9.
Gerson-Kiwi, Edith. 1986. “A.Z. Idelsohn: A Pioneer in Jewish Ethnomusicology,” Yuval 5: 46-52
Glantz, Leib. 1952. “The Musical Basis of Nusach Hatefillah,” Proceedings of the Fifth Annual Conference-Convention of the Cantors Assembly of America and the Department of Music of the United Synagogue of America:16-25.
Goldberg, Geoffrey. 2002. “The Training of Hazzanim in Nineteenth-Century Germany,” Yuval 7:299-367
Idelsohn, Abraham Zvi. 1922/1913. “Der synagogale Gesang im Lichte der orientalischen Music,” Dem Andenken Eduard Birnbaums, Aron Friedmann, ed. Berlin: C. Boaz Nachf:62-69. Reprint of a paper from 1913.
___. 1924. Toldot Hanegina Ha’ivrit. Tel-Aviv and Berlin: Dvir.
___. 1925. “Song and Singers of the Synagogue in the Eighteenth Century,” Hebrew Union College Annual Jubilee Volume 1875-1925:396-424.
___. 1929. Jewish Music in its Historical Development. New York: Henry Holt and Company.
___. 1939. “The Mogen Ovos Mode: A Study in Folk-lore,” Hebrew Union College Annual 14:559-574. Published posthumously. A reprint of “Der Mogen Ovos Steiger (eine folkloristische Studie),” Der jüdische Kantor, 1933.
Jeffrey, Peter. 1987 “Werner’s The Sacred Bridge, Volume 2: A Review Essay,” The Jewish Quarterly Review 77/4 (April 1987): 283-298.
Karp, Theodor. 1985-86. “Review of Eric Werner The Sacred Bridge,” [verify], Musica Judaica 8: 87-94.
Katz, Ruth. 1986. “Exemplification and the Limits of ‘Correctness’: The Implicit Methodology of Idelsohn’s Thesaurus,” Yuval 5:365-371.
Lachmann, Robert. 1978(original date?). Gesänge der Juden auf der Insel Djerba, Edith Gerson-Kiwi, ed. Jerusalem: The Magness Press, The Hebrew University.
Levine, Joseph. 1982. “Psalmody,” Journal of Synagogue Music 12/2:34-42.
___. 1980-81. “Toward Defining the Jewish Prayer Modes; with Particular Emphasis on the Adonay Malakh Mode,” Musica Judaica 3/1:13-41.
___. 1982-83. “The Musical Trope System of Ashkenazic Prophetic Reading,” Musica Judaica 5/1:35-52.
___. 1989. Synagogue Song in America. Crown Point: WhiteCliffs Media Company.
___. 2001. “The Three-Part Selicha mode,” Journal of Synagogue Music 28/1:1-36.
Marcus, Scott. 1993. “The Interface between Theory and Practice: Intonation in Arab Music,” Asian Music 24/2:39-58.
Marcus, Scott Lloyd. 1989. Arab music theory in the modern period, Ph.D. dissertation, University of California, Los Angeles. Published by U.M.I. 300 N. Zeeb Rd., Ann Arbor, MI 48106.
Mayer, Brian. 1989. “The Origins and Identification of the Nusah L’hol of Frankfurt Am Main,” Journal of Synagogue Music 19/1: 6-55.
___. 1992. “Evening Bar’chu for Shalosh Regalim: Will the Real Nusah Please Stand Up?,” Journal of Synagogue Music 22/1-2: 62-75.
___. 1998. “Degrees of Uniformity and Variation in the Ashkenazi Musical Tradition for the Three Festivals.” DSM Dissertation, The Jewish Theological Seminary of America.
Mazor, Yaacov, and Seroussi, Edwin. 1990-91. “Toward a Hasidic Lexicon of Music,” Orbis Musicae 10:118-143
Nulman, Macy. 1985-86. “A Perception of the Prayer Modes as Reflected in Musical and Rabbinic Sources,” Musica Judaica 8/1:45-58.
Powers, Harold. 1998. “Semantic Fields of the Terms Modus and Maqam in Musical and Musicological Discourse,” Studies in Socio-Musical Sciences, Joachim Braun and Uri Sharvit, editors. Ramat-Gan: Bar-Ilan University Press:135-147.
Sarason, Richard. 1985-86. Review of Eric Werner The Sacred Bridge, ”[verify], Musica Judaica 8: 87-94.
Schleifer, Eliyahu. 1986. “Anticipation in the Ashkenazi Synagogue Chant,” Orbis Musicae 9:90-102.
___. 1986. “Idelsohn’s Scholarly and Literary Publications: An Annotated Bibliography,” Yuval 5:53-180.
___. 1991. “Ne’imat ‘Nusach’ Shel Shalosh Regalim Bemasoret Yehudey Ashkenaz: Pisuk Musikali Vesulam Yichudi (The “Nusach” Tune of the Three Festivals in Ashkenazi Jewish Tradition),” Duchan 13:21-28.
Seroussi, Edwin. 2004. “Yesod Echad Lahen: Giluy Hamizrach Ve’achdutan Shel Mesorot Hamusika Hayehudit Bemishnat Avraham Tsvi Ideslohn,” Pe’amim 100:125-146.
___. 2009. “Music: The ‘Jew’ of Jewish Studies,” Jewish Studies 46:3-84.
Shiloah, Amnon. 1981. “The Arabic Concept of Mode,” Journal of the American Musicological Society 35/1:19-42.
___. 1992. Jewish musical traditions. Detroit: Wayne State University Press.
Singer, Joseph. 1886/1922. “Die Tonarten des traditionellen Synagogengesanges,” Dem Andenken Eduard Birnbaums, Aron Friedmann, ed. Berlin: C. Boaz Nachf:90-100. Reprint of a paper from 1886.
Slobin, Mark. 1989. Chosen Voices: the Story of the American Cantorate. Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press.
Spector, Johanna. 1955. “Nusha’oth in the Near East,” Proceedings of the Eighth Annual Conference-Convention of the Cantors assembly of America and the Department of Music of the United Synagogue of America 34-37.
Steinman, Eliezer, ed. 1965. Zeharim: In Memory of Leib Glanz. Tel Aviv: Institute for Jewish Religious Music.
Tamir, Noga. 2005. “Musicological-Ideological Aspects in the Work of A. Z. Idelsohn” (master’s thesis, Tel-Aviv University.)
Tarsi, Boaz. 1991. “Tonality and Motivic Interrelationships in The Performance Practice of Nusach,” Journal of Synagogue Music 21/1:5-27.
___. 2001 “The Adonai Malach Mode in Ashkenazi Payer Music: the Problem Stated and a Proposed Outlook based on Musical Characteristics,” Proceedings of the Thirteenth World Congress of Jewish Studies, Lekket, http://www.lekket.com/data/articles/003-000-093_000.pdf.
___. 2001-2002. “Toward A Clearer Definition of the Magen Avot Mode,” Musica Judaica 16:53-79.
___. 2002. “Observations on Practices of Nusach in America,” Asian Music 33/2:175-219.
___. 2002. “Voices in the Sanctuary: Musical Practices of the American Synagogue,” Conservative Judaism 55/1:61-73.
___. 2002. “Lower Extension of the Minor Scale in Ashkenazi Prayer Music,” Indiana Theory Review 23:153-183.
___. 2009. “On a Particular Case of Tonal, Modal, and Motivic Components in Sources for Liturgical Music of East and West European Origins,” in Iggud: Selcted Essays in Jewish Studies, Vol. 3, Languages, Literatures, Arts, Tamar Alexander-Frizer, Yosef Tobi, Dan Laor, Ora Schwartwald, Ziva Amishai-Maisels, eds., Jerusalem: Jerusalem: World Union of Jewish Studies, Magnes: 145–164.
___. 2013. “The Early Attempts at Creating a Theory of Ashkenazi Liturgical Music,” in Jüdische Musik als Dialog der Kulturen, Jewish Music as Dialogue of Cultures, Jascha Nemtsov, ed., (Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag), pp. 61-72.
___. 2017. “At the Intersection of Music Theory and Ideology: A. Z. Idelsohn and the Ashkenazi Prayer Mode Magen Avot,” Journal of Musicological Research: 1-26
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Werner, Eric. 1957. In the Choir Loft: a Manual for Organists and Choir Directors in American Synagogues. New York: Union of American Hebrew Congregations.
___. 1959. The Sacred Bridge. New York: Columbia University Press.
___. 1957. “The Music of Post Biblical Judaism,” The New Oxford History of Music, Vol. I: Ancient and Oriental Music, Egon Wellesz, ed. London, New York, Toronto: Oxford University Press: 313-35.
___. 1968. From Generation to Generation: Studies of Jewish Musical Tradition. New York: The American Conference of Cantors.
___. 1976. A Voice Still Heard: the Sacred Songs of the Ashkenazic Jews. University Park and London: The Pennsylvania State University Press.
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___ 1982. “Significant Aspects of the Ashkenazi Hazzanic Recitative,” Proceedings of the World Congress on Jewish Music, Jerusalem 1978, Judith Cohen, editor. Tel-Aviv: The Institute for the Translation of Hebrew Literature: 159-169.
___ 1987-88. “The Hazzanic Recitative,” Musica Judaica 10/1:40-51.
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Pilcatbt (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, this is amazing. Although this covers Ashkenazic music I know that Idelsohn's texts treat other traditions to a limited extent, howsoever old those monographs are. By the way, I left some talk page pointers on your user talk page. Ibadibam (talk) 03:33, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if I am responding correctly here (one indentation further than yours.) This is just a quick one. First, I am encouraged by your reaction; that is, your impression that there is a whole lot more involved here even if only considering the discourse that already exists on this matter (and its primary related territories). Just to reiterate, the one single source used in the original article (Boruch Cohon) is almost 70 years old and is no longer considered a learned source to support current study, although it is one of the clearest examples of several of the difficulties current research faces because of the historiography we "inherited" (combined with two or three more issues that render it more complicated.) As to Idelsohn - true, his work involved Jewish music outside of Ashkenaz and maybe even more so, Arabic music (I am deliberately using a somewhat fuzzy over-inclusive term.) This, in fact influenced his research of Jewish music in general and Ashkenazi in particular. We should also note that there is a fundamental qualitative difference between his methodology and sources used for Ashkenazi liturgical music and all other sub-traditions and geographic locations (although one aspect of his agenda was to show that they are, at base, the same and drawn from the same origin (a claim and assumption that is now accepted as erroneous but can be understood in view of his era, zeitgeist and personal predisposition and ideology). At any rate, Ideslohn's work too, especially when addressing issues of music theory, is no longer accepted without question, let alone used as the basis for current and further study. In fact, some of the bibliography attached tackles precisely this issue (a "clean up" of sorts, which has to be done in order to offer more coherent models). The Baruch Cohon article, is in fact based on Idelsohn verbatim, including the musical material it provides as support. OK, this was more than I intended to get into. Initially you asked me if I could offer some details about the main problems in this entry, and/or my criticism of the source(s?) upon which it is based. Would you like me to offer a few (not sure exactly when I can get to it, but I can give a short sample of a few of them later this week.Pilcatbt (talk) 01:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problems and needs of this article are clear, but it will be a large effort to synthesize an encyclopedic overview from a bibliography this long, and on a volunteer basis to boot. I will try to recruit editors at WikiProject Judaism, but in the meantime, could you recommend 2-3 major sources from your list that give the most comprehensive overview of the topic? And then we can work in additional sources over time. Ibadibam (talk) 03:57, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I did not intend for this entire bibliography to be included. I put it in here as a response to your question about the existence of a long list. Also, in terms of re-write, my intention is (was) to do it on my own but it will take time, I still need technical help (it can be great if I can find someone who is willing to get the text from me and then enter it to the website in the format and manner needed, I also wonder if I can start (by opening some kind of "working/in process" and gradually add to it (I think you implied such an option). I have a few more questions for later on. Also, in terms of bibliography, I assume there are items that need to be used as footnotes in reference to a particular statement or source and others as a recommendation for further reading, both significantly shorter. As for the immediate request for 2-3 sources to sum it up - I can try to choose something, in which case it will not address any of the conceptual premises or support certain models on which it is based, and it will not include literature that requires critical reading, or the kind that gives such critical reading on other material. I can do this perhaps tomorrow. I appreciate your responses and the help you have given me. Pilcatbt (talk) 18:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarifications. There are a couple of ways we can proceed...one is to work on it in userspace or workspace. You'd create the article at User:Pilcatbt/Jewish prayer modes or Talk:Jewish prayer modes/rewrite and one or two other editors could help there with Wikipedia style and markup and provide an informal review process. Another option is to use the Wikipedia:Drafts process, which is a bit more formalized and would involve a broader group of reviewers and collaborators. Lastly, you could email your draft in document form to me or another editor, to mark up and post on your behalf. The first two options would probably do a better job adding to your wiki toolbelt so I might lean toward those, if your time allows.

As to the 2-3 sources, I think the effort will go better if a couple of other editors have also read some of the sources. I've not read more than a bit of Idelsohn, and I'd love to read all of the sources you've provided above but realistically can only get through one or two in the near future. Ibadibam (talk) 00:52, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is difficult to find one or two sources that really give a semi-coherent picture - it can really just be gleaned from a bunch of them. So, the closest I have is one article - relatively short - that sort of introduces the conceptual/historiography "inheritance" [mostly the first phase before Idelsohn], and one article (old but more or less still valid) as a case study of how to tackle only one such mode for example. There is another one much more recent [using a different mode as a case study] and much more clear and involved about the concept and perceptional framework but, although it has passed all stages of approval, has not yet been published. Would it be advisable/possible to share this one as well? I realize that all of them are by the same author; this is not my intension for the entry itself but as an efficient and concise response to what you need, this is the simplest solution for now. Also, are there any guidelines regarding the length of such entry (and the amount of references either in the body of the work or as recommendation for further readings)? https://www.academia.edu/8097910/The_Early_Attempts_at_Creating_a_Theory_of_Ashkenazi_Liturgical_Music https://www.academia.edu/7997136/Tarsi_Toward_A_Cleraer_Definition_Of_The_Magen_Avot_Mode Pilcatbt (talk) 17:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]