Talk:Jewish holidays/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

[August 2012] Purim revision

Andorka recently made some revisions to the Purim section, which s/he is certainly entitled to do, discussing "Festive Drinking" on Purim. This is a subject of some controversy; at the same time, whether I like it or not, it is a substantial aspect of many people's Purim celebrations. I made some revisions here: I included mention of the Purim Seudah, because it does belong here.

I also retained some mention of drinking, because (a) it belongs here to some extent, and (b) I did not believe it was my place to take out Andorka's ideas entirely. But in this article, which is a high-level survey of holidays, I did not think that drinking deserved a separate subheader. Certainly there are other things (seder on Passover, for example) that would deserve a subheader more, and in any event calling that much attention to drinking on Purim here is, in my view, not desirable.

If someone wants to discuss Drinking on Purim at some length on Wikipedia, the place to start on that would be the Purim article, not here, IMO.

StevenJ81 (talk) 23:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC)==[Sep 2012] Non-Biblical Sources for Jewish observance of Shabbat--limiting discussion to Shabbat page==

There have recently been a series of edits and reversals on this article with respect to including non-Biblical sources for the Jewish observance of Sabbath. Such information should certainly be included in Wikipedia if it is adequately sourced (and it is). However, I would strongly argue that this article (the Jewish Holiday article) is not the place for this. Inclusion of Sabbath on this page is strictly about its inclusion in the cycle of Jewish holidays. Theories on Non-Biblical sources for Shabbat are at minimum not particularly relevant in the context of Shabbat as Jewish holiday. At worst they may be distracting in this context.

For this reason, I would like to make the following proposal:

1. Carefully move all this material to the appropriate section within the article Shabbat so that it remains accessible
2. Remove this material here, leaving only a specific, hyperlinked reference to the point in the Shabbat article where it is moved

Because two recent editors identifiable only by IP address have worked on those edits in the past month, I'd like to leave the job of moving the material in their hands if they will so agree. I will give the whole process two weeks from today, and then will undertake the job myself.

If I end up moving the material myself, and if my edits are then reversed without discussion, I hereby give notice that I will reverse the reversal, on the grounds that my offer of discussion was refused.

StevenJ81 (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

 Done This was done as part of the revision published on October 29. See below. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

[Autumn 2012] Organization of lead paragraph of article "Jewish holidays"

Section header used original article name, "Jewish holiday," but has been edited to reflect renaming of article (see below)

There has been a debate over how to organize the lead. The two options are this way (without bullet points, more summarized, although could still use work but different issue) or the previous way (without bullet points, could still use work but different issue).

From my talk page: Hi, Jethro. As the person who has been the principal editor of Jewish holiday of late, I would like to ask you to withdraw your MOS objections to the way I organized the lead paragraph. I fully appreciate the general concepts behind both of the MOS rules you cite here. Still, this article is peculiar in a number of ways, but because of this peculiarity I think my approach, bulleted and all, makes sense. Let me explain:

• While I am adding some additional in-line citations as I move through the article, there is a fair amount of information here that I include without any direct and specific sources. My approach to this article has been that it covers each holiday on a very superficial level, with most of the information being on a very high, "obvious" level; e.g., "Jews traditionally eat matzo on Passover." I could provide a citation for that statement (and perhaps one is even there), but it's also pretty obvious, and not one subject to serious challenge. Simply put, every single holiday in this article gets "its own section," and then each of those sections in turn hyperlinks to a dedicated article on the holiday. In those articles all of the sourcing is (or should be) complete.
• When I first began working on this article, it was arranged as one section per holiday. I think this is totally appropriate, and is consistent with the approach I described above. (Or, perhaps, the above approach is consistent with this.)
• For that reason, I did not want to create a "section" at the top to cover information like terminology and groupings. As Shabbat is the leading holiday, Shabbat should also be the leading section of the article.
• All that said, I felt the bulleted approach to differentiating between different terms for holidays would be a clearer approach in this case than using all body text.

Your challenge to my organizational approach here suggests that I have three choices:

1. Your approach
2. The actual lead section of the article is reduced to the first paragraph, I add a section "Introduction," or "Terminology," or something, leave that information in according to my bulleted approach, and then start with Shabbat as section 2. (Variant: Add a section header under introduction, then let all holidays be level-3 sections under it. I prefer the holidays to have level-2 section headers.)
3. My original approach

I fully appreciate that either of the other approaches is purer in terms of MOS. However, I would remind you that MOS is intended to lead to clarity. MOS is not an absolutely immutable set of rules. My feeling is that my approach is superior for clarity in this particular case. I will be off until after the first days of Sukkot, so if you respond to me and I don't write back that's why. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:55, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

As of now, I have reverted while this discussion takes place. --Jethro B 20:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

OK. After reading this, I personally like the second option, regarding creating a new section on terminology. My original objections to the lead focused on that I felt the material wasn't necessary for a lead. Leads should summarize, and the terminology isn't a summary. Instead of removing the info, however, I started off with removing bullet points, per WP:MOS. Option 2 - creating a new section on terminology - would help fit my concerns, seems to be OK with StevenJ81 as well, and complies with WP:LEAD. --Jethro B 20:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I personally like the more summarized version best. Debresser (talk) 13:26, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Which one is that? --Jethro B 00:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

"The two options are this way (without bullet points, more summarized, although could still use work but different issue) or the previous way (without bullet points, could still use work but different issue)."

First of all, Jethro: thank you for the courtesy of reverting pending discussion.

Second, Debresser (and Jethro and anyone else), I would welcome your thoughts on further work to do on the "true introduction," let's call it. Before I shortened that to a single sentence, I looked at the articles Muslim holidays and Liturgical year (which is the redirect you get from "Christian holidays"). Both have very minimal lead sections. The only thing it would be obvious to me to add here in somewhat of a parallel would be to state that in the modern Jewish world, the actual observance of the holidays varies on the "denomination," etc. But just about any further detail along that path belongs, in my view, in Jewish religious movements and/or in the individual holiday articles.

Third, it's true that terminology isn't itself a summary. However, as I reread, I better appreciate that I used the terminology/groupings portion of the lead to lay out some basic concepts (such as "not working on yom tov." So as I put that together, and reread your suggestions, I am coming to the conclusion that we really should have a section about "Terminology and Overall Concepts," or some such title, or even two sections. Then we have more flexibility as to how to present the information, as well as the ability to expand slightly on the concepts of work/melacha and joy/simcha as they relate to the holidays overall. I would have thought those concepts (especially simcha) to be a little complex for a lead here.

Fourth, given the preceding, I'm inclined to add after the "Terminology and Overall Concepts" portion(s) a 2nd-level header titled "Holidays of Biblical and Rabbinic (Talmudic) Origin," and demote all the holidays to 3rd-level headers. I think this has pros and cons, but to me there are two important positive results: we still mark Shabbat as "1," and for those on the Jewish right who are not so connected to the holidays of Modern Israeli origin, they get a little stronger distinction.

So I wonder what you think of the above approach? If you approve in general, by all means add your suggestions and comments for improvement. Then I would undertake to redo this shortly after Simchat Torah, which is next Tuesday, and we will just leave the current version up until then.

Finally: I'd appreciate your input on the previous discussion point on this talk page. I'm not looking to censor--only feeling that the point is not relevant here. Under the revised organization of this article, the one sentence under the header "Holidays of Biblical ... Origin" before "Shabbat" could be something like, "For information about alternative (non-Biblical) ideas on the origin of Shabbat and certain holidays, please see the respective articles."

Thank you for your input and discussion. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:42, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I fully understand exactly what you're saying, but what I do understand I believe I agree with. At either rate, before you edit this version, edit this article in my sandbox first, here. It's the same exact article, just it's in my sandbox so play around with it and we can then decide how it looks and whether to move it over to the real article itself. --Jethro B 18:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

OK. I'll do that. I won't get to it until mid-next week at the earliest due to the currently running holidays. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Jethro (and anyone else): Please now check the version in Jethro's sandbox. I am still missing a couple of sources, particularly in the melacha section, although I know what I am looking to use. I also want to rearrange the hyperlinks a little in the whole "General Concepts section, particularly to change as many hyperlinks as possible in that section to target points in this article first. That having been said, I am soliciting in particular

1. People's opinions on the whole approach
2. NPOV in the melacha section
3. Opinion on the insertion and deletion proposed around the non-Biblical sources for Shabbat. I would note that I am not looking to violate NPOV on this--I'm leaving a hyperlink trail to it. I just think this issue is not directly relevant to Shabbat in the context of the full range of Jewish holidays.

Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 01:40, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll have a look at it when I get a chance. But is it necessary to include both the English and Hebrew name for the holidays in the section title itself? Being the Wikipedia English version, I feel we should only include the English title, and note the Hebrew title in the body itself. --Jethro B 01:50, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

That's a good point, Jethro. It's probably better to include the Hebrew in the text instead of the section headings. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:00, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate it. StevenJ81, how does that sound to you? --Jethro B 04:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I concur that Hebrew should be kept out of section headers. Debresser (talk) 08:00, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, I preferred having the Hebrew in the header, which is why I started changing the article in that direction. But you're not wrong, and I'm fine taking Hebrew back out of the headers. It certainly makes it easier to do section hyperlinks that way. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:39, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done StevenJ81 (talk) 16:01, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Steven. The version we're referring to now can be found here. I think the titles still may be excessive. For example, do we need to write "Rosh Hashana - the Jewish New Year" as the section title? I think that just writing the name of the holiday in English, "Rosh Hashana," and then explaining in the text itself that it's the Jewish new year, would be a more correct version. What are other's opinions on this? --Jethro B 23:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I discovered the article already in this condition. I don't have a strong feeling about it, but I'm inclined to leave it alone for now. StevenJ81 (talk) 00:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Status as of 23 October 2012 22:00 UTC

Current version can be found here. I'm anxious to get this done; I need to spend less time here for a while.

1. I've completed the new "General Concepts" section as much as I intend to for right now, and would like to get feedback. Concerning hyperlinks in the "General Concepts" section:
   • The first time a holiday or observance is mentioned in the "General Concepts" section, its hyperlink is an intrapage link to its corresponding section below. At that point, there is (or should be) a link to the appropriate full article on each particular holiday.
   • Links out to other pages only occur where there is no section on this page directly corresponding.
2. I have heard nothing from anyone on the delete-and-replace proposal around Shabbat, so I will assume everyone is ok with that.
3. I don't really want to change the English section titles now, as noted above.
4. Last question: With Hebrew out of the titles, do people prefer that it go back into the notes on Hebrew dates in each holiday section, or do they prefer it in body text? (Obviously, for Shabbat and Rosh Chodesh it goes in body text.) My plan is to fix up through Simchat Torah now, and then update other sections to make them consistent as we swing around the year.

Thanks for your comments. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Published as of 20:51, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The revisions described above are now published. Thanks to all for your support. I'm going to spend less time on Wikipedia for a while in the coming weeks--I'm job hunting. I do plan to continue to update the individual holiday sections and make them more consistent as they come around during the year.

• Jethro B (talk · contribs), this was posted in your sandbox, so I'll leave it to you to delete it there. Thanks for hosting.

StevenJ81 (talk) 20:51, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

• • I'm going to leave it in the sandbox for a while, in case anyone wants to go through the history. --Jethro B 21:00, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

[Nov 2012] Proposed minor adjustment to article name

Can I suggest this is renamed Jewish holidays, as there are lots. Any dissent? --Dweller (talk) 10:18, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

NB I assume the current title ("holiday/s") reflects standard American usage... in BrEng, I'd expect people to say "festival/s" as to us "holiday" means "vacation". Can someone confirm my assumption is correct? --Dweller (talk) 10:20, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't have any objection to moving the article to Jewish holidays. And yes, holidays is American English for festivals. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:19, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the plural, "Jewish holidays", would be a better title. Bus stop (talk) 03:26, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the USEng confirmation. I'm going to make this page move, as it doesn't seem controversial. And I'll be happy to undo it (or certainly discuss it further!) if a bunch of complaints appear. --Dweller (talk) 11:19, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree, also. My only concern is that links don't get broken over it. (Sorry not to respond yesterday–American Thanksgiving, so not on-line much.) StevenJ81 (talk) 17:58, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Links won't get broken with a regular move. Debresser (talk) 16:06, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

New Jewish holidays [started 2004, completed April 2013]

*Yom Hazikaron - Iyar 4 - Day of remembrance. In honor of Israeli veterans of the War of Independence. --

• Yom Ha'atzma'ut - Iyar 5 -

Israel Independence Day.

Are these really Jewish holidays, or Israeli national holidays? The difference is not inconsiderable. user:Montrealais

They are accepted as new Jewish holidays by all Reform and Conservative Jews, and by the Union of Orthodox Congregations and the Rabbinical Council of America (Modern Orthodox.) I think that most Haredi Jews do not observe them. RK

Have these Orthodox organizations accepted Yom Hashoah too? Source? Dreyfus 00:05, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The text states that the Chief Rabbinate of Israel established Holocaust Remembrance day and Memorial Day. This cannot be correct. Surely these dates were established by the Knesset. --Redaktor (talk) 14:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Naturally, the situation is not quite so straightforward. With respect to Yom Ha'atzma'ut, the Knesset established it after consultation with, and with the endorsement of, the Rabbanut. The same is true with Yom HaZikaron and Yom Yerushalayim, and some Haredim even take note of Yom Yerushalayim due to the liberation of Har HaBayit.

Yom HaShoah's origins are a bit trickier. The originally proposed date was based on the beginning of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, but that turns out to be Erev Pesach. After some negotiation between non-religious and religious parties, Nisan 27 was selected as being (a) during the period when the Warsaw Ghetto uprising was still ongoing, (b) markedly after Pesach, but (c) before Yom Ha'atzma'ut. The Rabbanut really preferred to use the Fast of Tevet for this purpose, because of the prohibition against certain mourning customs during Nisan. However, the K'nesset enacted Nisan 27, and the Rabbanut eventually went along. (See, at least, http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/vl/5770dinim/5770dinim01.pdf.)

I would venture that most Modern Orthodox observe all four of these dates as established by the Knesset, although sometimes moves forward or back the Rabbanut established to avoid Shabbat violations are not observed outside of Israel due to the less elaborate observances outside the Land.

In any event, I could stand to document all this more formally and put it into an article, and I will. (At some point.) StevenJ81 (talk) 18:08, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

 Done Done as of March 8, except for Yom Yerushalayim, but that will be finished in due course. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:38, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

 Done Now fully complete. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

[Spring 2013] To do list (last updated 13:52, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

As those following this article know, I've been fixing up this article a bit over time, trying to stay just a little ahead of the calendar.

As of 15:42, 8 March 2013 (UTC) main section complete through Lag Ba'Omer, Israeli holidays section complete through Yom Ha'atzmaut. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:42, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

As of 20:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC), main section complete through Shavuot, Israeli holidays section complete. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done Complete as of 13:52, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm starting to create a "to do list" for when we come around to (before) Rosh Hashanah again. Most of the items are small, but anyone is (of course) welcome to help. If it's left to me, I'm not going to do these before late summer, at the earliest.

1. In Selihot section: Mention of "Month of Elul" as a time for repentance.
2. A little better upgrade on Rosh Hashanah itself
3. At the end of the 2nd-level section on "Biblical and Rabbinic holidays", a new 3rd-level section on "Miscellaneous Fasts". I would intend to include Yom Kippur Katan and בה״ב, at no greater level of detail than in the Ta'anit article. I will probably also cover drought fasts in Israel, since they are Mishnaic in origin.
4.  Not done Maybe: WP:NPOV inclusion of Rabin's yahrzeit in the Israeli holidays section. Please comment. 15:03, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
5. A new 2nd-level section ("Ethnic and Other"?). I would (very) briefly cover the ethnic holidays here.
6.  Not done *I am tempted to have a mention here of days widely observed in Chassidus. My working definition of widely is "over half of chassidus", though I am open to suggestions.
   • Days only observed in one branch of Chassidus (or one and its sub-branches) are not widely observed.

     I am aware that this is a stricter criterion than simply WP:NOTABILITY. I am not necessarily suggesting those days don't deserve their own articles. I am simply trying to enforce ground rules for inclusion in this survey article on Jewish holidays as outlined in talk page archives on this article.

   If anyone has any nominations for days to include under these criteria, please start a discussion below before actually undertaking an edit. But please remember:

   • This is a survey article, not a detailed article.
   • I don't want to start edit wars on this subject again.
   • If edit wars start, I will almost certainly try to quash the whole thing and revert to a sentence or two about how individual chassidic groups tend to have celebrations of their own, see individual chassidic group or chassidism for details.15:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
7. [The big one] Dividing the current footnotes into "references" (those that substantially contain only a source) and "notes" (those with some additional explanation).

Many thanks for everyone's support, input and suggestions. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:23, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Rabin's yahrtzeit is not established by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, so has no place in this article.

I think the Chassidic days are also out of place, as not being universal. Then again, in the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays we have ethnic holidays, and this is no different. Still, I'd advise against this, as it is like asking for trouble.

In general, perhaps we should consider a split of Jewish, Israel, and chassidic holidays into three separate articles. Debresser (talk) 19:08, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I hear you, and to a great extent I agree. I wanted to solicit some opinion, so we'll see what comes up. In all honesty, I didn't really think any Chassidic day could meet the 50% standard except possibly for the yahrzeit of the Baal Shem Tov, anyway.

Re the ethnic holidays, Mimouna has spread from its Moroccan/Algerian roots; it's pretty widely observed in the Edot HaMizrach, and to some extent beyond that in the Sefardi world, so it (borderline) qualifies. The others really don't. But one wants to be a little sensitive to ethnic groups, too. Mimouna has roots in part as an Isru Chag celebration of Pesach, so it could be finessed in there. I'll give some thought to the approach; in any event, I won't get to them so fast.

Re splitting off Israeli holidays, I'm just not going to do that. They are widely observed in some fashion or another by almost all Jews who are not charedim. Covering them in an NPOV way is pretty challenging, though. Have a look at my sandbox (User:StevenJ81/sandbox), where I have started working on them. In particular, look at the section header, the portion on Yom HaShoah, and for that matter the section on Lag Ba'Omer, in all of which I am trying to reconcile religious and secular celebration modes.

The big difference between the Jewish and Israeli holidays is that Jewish holidays are for all Jews the world over, while the Israeli holidays are (mostly) restricted to Israel. I think that is such a basic difference, that they should be in separate articles. Debresser (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with you on that. At minimum, Yom HaShoah and Yom HaAtzmaut are widely observed by Jews in chutz la'aretz. And many, many Jews who reside in chutz la'aretz still feel ownership as Jews in the State of Israel and its institutions, including its holidays.

More to the point, there has been substantial discussion on this subject over the years at Template talk:Jewish and Israeli holidays. I won't rehash that, but the consensus has been that the Israeli holidays remain, separated out from the traditional holidays in some notable way. This article is organized on the same lines, and I think that is appropriate. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Even those Jews who do something about Israeli special days in the diaspora, do so in another way, for obvious reasons. And to the second point, there is a difference between a template and an article, especially an article that is already large enough to be split. I am not opening the discussion, but I think it should be kept in mind. Debresser (talk) 01:16, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Sephardic holiday of Maimuna [Requested 2004, done summer 2013]

Should we add the Sephardic-only holiday of Maimuna? This holiday follows the end of Passover, and is in honor of Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon, better known as Maimonides. Maybe we should add it under Passover? RK 21:02, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

• Sephardic Passover Custims

Yes, of course Maimuna should be here! As it is celebrated on the evening of isru chag Pesach, it would be the most logical to put it right after Pesach in a subheader... JFW | T@lk 15:24, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

But it never made it, as far as it goes. Consistent with the nature of this article, the mention will be extremely brief, and will point to other articles. I have been beefing up this article holiday by holiday as we come around to them during this year (5773/2012-13), so I will probably start in on this (as a subheader under Pesach) some time after Tu B'Shevat. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

 Done StevenJ81 (talk) 13:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

[May 2013] Inclusion of Holocaust Remembrance Days on Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays

Please have a look at the discussion at Template talk:Jewish and Israeli holidays#Inclusion of Holocaust Memorial Days. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

To do list 20:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm starting to create a "to do list" for when we come around to (before) Rosh Hashanah again. Most of the items are small, but anyone is (of course) welcome to help. If it's left to me, I'm not going to do these before late summer, at the earliest.

1. In Selihot section: Mention of "Month of Elul" as a time for repentance. Done StevenJ81 (talk) 15:14, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
2. A little better upgrade on Rosh Hashanah itself

    Done. Thanks for catching the typos. I did remove one substantive fact: yoma arichta. I did add a hyperlink to the general discussion of yom sheni shel galyuot, where Rosh Hashanah is treated differently from other holidays. But I thought yoma arichta (and how that differs from other holidays) was unnecessary detail here. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

3. At the end of the 2nd-level section on "Biblical and Rabbinic holidays", a new 3rd-level section on "Miscellaneous Fasts". I would intend to include Yom Kippur Katan and בה״ב, at no greater level of detail than in the Ta'anit article. I will probably also cover drought fasts in Israel, since they are Mishnaic in origin.

   Drafted. I would appreciate input from a pair of eyes or two on this. See at User:StevenJ81/sandbox#Other fasts. I chose not to include Shovavim Tet, because I thought that was a little too obscure even for here, and I also chose not to include the fast of 7 Adar for the Chevra Kadisha (ultimately, too private). StevenJ81 (talk) 21:03, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

    Done StevenJ81 (talk) 13:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

4. Possibly some appropriate mention of the ethnic holidays (per Maimuna discussion above). Maimuna will almost certainly make it (probably as a subheader under Pesach). Whether the others will or not is unclear; they may not really be observed by enough people to make them qualify here. (See discussion archives over this issue.)

    Done See section below. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

5. [The big one] Dividing the current footnotes into "references" (those that substantially contain only a source) and "notes" (those with some additional explanation).

    In progress Up to the beginning of the Israeli holidays section StevenJ81 (talk) 15:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

    Done StevenJ81 (talk) 16:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks for everyone's support, input and suggestions. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:17, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Archive 1

Archive 2