Talk:Jesus' Blood Never Failed Me Yet

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Mholyoke 15:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)mholyoke 14.01.2007 Gavin Bryrs' website specifically says he was making the film in 1971. Did the author have any reason for suggesting it was the 60s?[reply]

While the song is often referred to as a Christian song. It seems important to note that in the Catholic Church, Jesus' Blood is represented as wine. The tramp seems more likely singing about his love of excessive drinking than his love of Christianity.

Utter speculation, the article on the website says specifically "and one, who in fact did not drink, sang a religious song "Jesus' Blood Never Failed Me Yet"." ( emphasis mine ) - 58.110.146.23 12:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

spot on! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.246.204.98 (talk • contribs) 10:57, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus' Blood Never Found Me Yet

I just listen to this and it sounds like to me he is sing "Jesus' Blood Never Found Me Yet"? Perhaps more appropriate for a destitute tramp? -- 82.31.245.48 (talk) 09:58, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, its definatly 'failed'. Ceoil (talk) 10:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Missing teeth do not help articulation. Perhaps Bryars chose not to reveal the man's name out of respect for surviving family.Does anyone have a link for the rest of the original hymn ?--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 14:01, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've wondered that myself in the past, but all I've ever found is other discussions where people ask the same question - I've found no answer. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC

The first hymn in the piece you reverted has the repetition of the phrase "Never failed me yet" which is central to the old man's performance. The royalties question may yield some info but very old hymns are out of copyright. I thought tracing the original(s) would be a doddle -churches and religions keep good records but nothing so far.oh well.funny old wiki wicked world--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 14:56, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it did contain that phrase, but Wikipedia rules forbid the addition of original research. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:59, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I'll stick it in here instead for comparison if it cannot be mentioned on the page--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 15:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The homeless singer may have put two original hymns together "He Never Failed Me Yet" ^[1] and possibly "The Blood that Jesus once shed for me"^[2] as there exists no record of a hymn with the precise phrasing he used.

There is a hymn called "He Never Failed Me Yet" composed by the African American Robert J. Ray, composer,composer of Sacred Music, conductor and clinician, and Professor of Music and coordinator of Keyboard studies at the University of Missouri at St. Louis, but it is not the same song.^[3]

It is unrecorded who may have composed the original hymn(s).

Here is a page with some good links for further hunting

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=118126&messages=6 There's one thing I know For he loves me so is from the children's song "Jesus Loves Me" (words Anna B. Warner, Music William B. Bradbury 1816-1868)--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 15:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Another page gives the latter hymn line as" Jesus loves me this I know For the Bible tells me so"-- not quite a match then.[reply]

phrases in other hymns that are reproduced in this song

I propose the insertion of a new subsection which includes the phrases ""There's one thing I know For he loves me so" and a reference to the hymn it is from and "never failed me yet" and its source hymn. To avoid the whiff of original research one can simply mention their existence-No ? to not do so seems remiss--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 16:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure on this. Generally I don't think it would be a good precedent to set to add "Similar works" sections to music articles based on other works containing the same words or phrases - there appears to be a trend these days against the inclusion of trivia, and unless there are reliable sources to connect those other hymns to this song, I think it would be considered trivia. But if there is an argument that it is more than coincidence, I think the "There's one thing I know For he loves me so" is the only one of the two that would hold water - the phrase "never failed me yet" is too short and too general -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:26, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As it presently stands the article has no information that indicates that the first recording was in 1971. This needs to be addressed.--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 16:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This needs to be sourced. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is clear from the sourced quote that Bryars recorded his own tape loops in 1971. But music articles generally don't record when artists first made personal recordings of parts of their compositions - they note the dates of commercial recordings, and we have no evidence of a commercial recording before the 1975 Obscure recording. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:26, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oops possibly on the hymn wording[[1]] per more reliable looking reference the phrase is NOT exactly the same in this record of it -Mea Culpa.

I still maintain the composing/recording data on the page is unclear and confusing the- 1971 data one should SAY recording and composition and the 1975 one should SAY first commercial or retail or something similar. I have written to Bryars to try to get to the bottom of the original hymn mystery and several other questions -if we are already accepting in the article his personal website as gospel...... if that counts as original research I can always get him to bung it on his website -is that data laundering ? What do you think about a section to mention the short story based on the song ? --— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 19:43, 17 January 2011 (UTC) The biggie would be the name of the singer. I am sure many people deeply affected by the song would like to visit his grave--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 19:47, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The singer's name is not known, it was a random field recording. Ceoil 21:18, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And yet Bryars knew that the man(unverified that it was a man ? :) ) had died between the recording of the singing and the assembly of the composite-that argues against the "random field theory"--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 03:46, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The unknown singer was unknown to the other tramps, he kept for himself. When Bryars et al. came back (after the record's success?) and asked for him he was simply gone, supposedly dead (it's indeed a rough life). This I remember from a radio documentary sometime in 80's/90's. Thus he was difficult to trace. 90.132.45.102 (talk) 10:47, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we don't actually have a reliable source that says a recording of the work itself was made in 1971 - all we really know is that Bryars recorded tape loops in 1971, but those were components of it and were not the whole work itself. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose the" completion" of a work such as this is like the editing of a film" -it can go through many "finished cuts" Can we regard the first version with the simple piano melody as "cut number one"

Oh, and just another thought - I think it's very unlikely that the tramp would have a grave. People only get graves if there is someone to pay for them, otherwise they're just cremated and thrown away. And if nobody knew his name at the time, nobody is going to know now -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:42, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that London Borough Council will prove kinder than you envisage--— Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 03:46, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

versions

I propose to add: In 1981, choregrapher Maguy Marin used the piece as the score for her Beckett-inspired work May B ^[4] ^[5].

By the way, is versions an appropriate name for listing works using this music? Should we list these in a separate section?

^ http://www.hymnlyrics.org/requests/he_never_failed_me_yet.php
^ http://www.hymnlyrics.org/newlyrics_b/the_blood_that_jesus_once_shed_for_me.php
^ http://www.umsl.edu/~umslmusic/bios/ray.html
^ "The Dance: 'May B' by Marin". The New York Times. 1986-02-19. Retrieved 2013-04-28.
^ "May B, Théâtre du Rond-Point, Paris". Financial Times. 2012-11-21. Retrieved 2013-04-28.

More reference information:

--Pduhamel (talk) 17:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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[1] ttp://www.hymnlyrics.org/requests/he_never_failed_me_yet.php

[2] ttp://www.hymnlyrics.org/newlyrics_b/the_blood_that_jesus_once_shed_for_me.php

[3] ttp://www.umsl.edu/~umslmusic/bios/ray.html

[4] "The Dance: 'May B' by Marin". The New York Times. 1986-02-19. Retrieved 2013-04-28.

[5] "May B, Théâtre du Rond-Point, Paris". Financial Times. 2012-11-21. Retrieved 2013-04-28.

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