Talk:Jelenia Góra

I added

Information about city's history from its webpage.--Molobo (talk) 23:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This information doesn't look very trustworthy. A legend about the foundation of the city is irrelevant, especially when the city and the surrunding places aren't mentioned for the next 150+ years. And the city also didn't pass to the Jagiellons. The local Piasts died out in 1392, but the Jagiellons became kings of Bohemia after 1470. And assigning nationalities to these dynasties isn't a good idea either. Karasek (talk) 08:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Legends are very notable. If you believe the city's authorities are wrong contact them. As to the rest that is your opinion.--Molobo (talk) 10:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I restored city's official statements, without removing your sources. However I would like to see citations for them. --Molobo (talk) 10:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, no problem. But, quite frankly: isn't if obvious that these "official statements" from the city can't be true? Just check the Polish entry about Agnes (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnieszka_Habsburska) and Bolko II (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolko_II_Ma%C5%82y). Agnes was the last dutchess, and the Jagiellons became Bohemian kings long after her death. Who received the duchy when she died? The sentence is simply illogical.

BTW: the Polish article about thr town states that Jelenia Góra passed to Bohemia after her death (as I said) but also states that the Jagiellons, as Bohemian kings, granted the city some rights. And that's true. Karasek (talk) 11:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia itself can't be used as a source. PL Wiki is notoriously incorrect. I might also note that historic research can have may viewpoints including ones on legal issues.--Molobo (talk) 12:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the German name, hope this is ok — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.223.156.117 (talk) 16:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Name Change

I think that the article is very confusing in respect of the city's name, which I understand to have been Hirschberg until after the Second World War. I don't think the name the Czechs use for the city is especially relevant and only makes the article even more confusing. I known it's close to the Czech border, but it is a Polish city, once a German city. The Latin name for the city is surely of no relevance whatsoever. I will change the structure of this to one which I feel is less confusing. If anyone wishes to alter what I have done, however, I will have no objection. I do not profess to be an authority on the history of this town. JohnP2o2o (talk) 13:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

City authorities

Are important source of information, their information can't be just erased. We aren't here to determine what is true or not but to establish what is claimed by who.--Molobo (talk) 19:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The city authorities of Jelenia Gora don't know their own history. It's basic knowledge of both the Silesian and Bohemian history that, when Agnes of Habsburg, the last dutchess of the area, died, the duchy passed to Bohemia. And when she died in 1392 not the Jagiellons but the house of Luxembourg ruled Bohemia.

And: there is no spa in historical Jelenia Gora. The spa is in Cieplice Śląskie-Zdrój, which is a district of Jelenia Gora only since 1975. Cieplice Śląskie-Zdrój has a rich history of its own. The spa, later town, needs its own article.

So: I deleted the legend. Untrustworthy source and not relevant. I deleted the Jagiellons, changed it to house of Luxembourg and provided several sources. And I deleted the spa, since Cieplice Śląskie-Zdrój was an independent town until 1975 and doesn't belong here. If we mention the spa here we have to add the history of Cieplice Śląskie-Zdrój too, and the entire article becomes a mess. Karasek (talk) 07:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We don't base our articles on statements by users, but on sources outside Wikipedia. Please read on Original Research. If the authorities make the mention regarding Cieplice-which is is an integral part of Jelenia Góra then it is sourced information, also by visiting there they also visited Jelenia Góra.--Molobo (talk) 10:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We don't talk about todays situation but about the history of Jelenia Gora. And until 1975 Cieplice/Bad Warmbrunn was an independent village, later town. That's not original research, that's even mentioned on the official site of the city and in several books which I can happily provide. Karasek (talk) 08:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hirschberg labor camp, Nazi era

Among the several locales named Jelenia Góra, is this the only one called Hirschberg by the Germans? If so, is it the location of the Hirschberg forced labor camp? -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:54, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are many Hirschbergs, but yes, this Hirschberg was the location of one of many subcamps (Aussenlager) of KZ Gross- Rosen. This fact should be added, but sadly i don't know any details. Karasek (talk) 16:10, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Added scholary source

Added scholary source, attributed claims, all viewpoints need to be presented, the claims of city itself are notable and need to be presented.--Molobo (talk) 16:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last year Jelenia Góra celebrated 900 hundred anniversary of its existance

I added that information. A series of shows, events and celebrations were held. A few pictures would be great I will search some and add to the article if possible.--Molobo (talk) 16:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Local tables celebrating 900 years of existance

[1]--Molobo (talk) 16:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight

The whole city celebrated 900 years last years, monuments were made, coins minted, officials opened up shows and historians made lectures on that occassion. I seriously have doubts that Weczerka is needed now in the the article, all points out he represents a fringe, unreckognised view towards the city.--Molobo (talk) 16:51, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The city itself writes this on the webpage: "Początki miasta sięgają czasów piastowskich, a legenda przypisuje jego założenie Bolesławowi Krzywoustemu w 1108 roku. Jednak pierwsze wzmianki pisane pochodzą dopiero z roku 1281, kiedy zostaje wymieniony jeleniogórski proboszcz oraz z roku 1288, gdy tutejszych mieszkańców określa się już jako mieszczan." [2] My Polish is pretty limited, but it translates to something like: "The beginning of the city dates back to the Piast times and legend attributes its foundation in 1108 to Bolesław III Wrymouth. However, the first written mention comes from the years 1281 and 1288."

The Piasts ruled the area until 1392. No further details, which would support a earlier foundation, are presented. It's all based on a legend, even the towns anniversary (just like Rome, but not that common in the rest of Europe). This doesn't refute Weczerka and Dehio, a German-Polish scientific publication, but supports them. Karasek (talk) 21:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's your original research, which of course ignored scholary Polish publication dating the towns importance to well before Weczerka's extreme claims.--Molobo (talk) 16:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's original research when I translate a source you introduced? Hmm. And I don't ignore scholary Polish publications, I just waited for Mr. Pregiels answer to my question. I now added a tag, so please add a citation. And Mr. Weczerka "extreme claims" are supported by several other sources, as I already said. Karasek (talk) 16:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's your original research when you try to portay founding of Jelenia Góra as myth contrary to established scholary knowledge. That it conflicts with certain stereotypes in German based historiography is no reason to delete it in face of city's own whole year dedicating to its history, that contradicts claims of people having their books published by organisation known for animosity to Poland.--Molobo (talk) 17:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your source, the city website itself, states that the date 1108 is only a legend. Pregiel writes about a base for a military campaign. Both don't refute my sources. A temporary military camp isn't a permanent settlement. Pregiels assertion however makes sense and should be included, since a old road from Bohemia crossed the area and the region was heavily fortified. Karasek (talk) 07:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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