Talk:Jedediah Sanger

GA nomination

Hello MB,

I was looking at this article to review, but it needs a bit of reorganization. Instead of reviewing it, how about if I reorganize it a bit with the hope that it will be easier to review going forward?–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:10, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

It is obvious that you have done a great deal of research. It would be good, though, to hone it down to its finer points. And, if there is a way to roll up the subsections into fewer sections, that would be great. I hope you agree that condensing, but still maintaining content in notes will make it easier for the average reader, but the detail is there for readers interested in that level of detail. (i.e., unless the content is summarized, I wouldn't and others wouldn't likely pass it due to GA criteria #3b - lack of focus / too much detail.)

I have done a fair amount tonight, but I still think that content in the New York section could be summarized. It would be good to add more info into the introduction. And a nice-to-have would be to put the list info into prose.–CaroleHenson (talk) 08:27, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

This is  Done. I summarized the lists and put the lists in notes, regrouped some of the subsections, added more to the intro, and summarized a bit more. I wasn't able to condense the number of sections - it made more sense to regroup (like into settlement / land development, turnpikes, civic leadership).–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:14, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't able to remove the number of subsections, but I added the {{TOC limit|3}} to cut out the 4th level. To make it so that only level 2 headings are in the TOC, the limit could be set to 2.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:03, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I posted a message here about reviewing the article after doing a lot of work on it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:17, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Based upon the response, I won't review the article. I've been adding some images. I hope you like the way it's come along.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:03, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Questions

MB You have researched this article incredibly well! I just have a couple of questions:

• More out of curiosity than anything else, do you know if Jedediah inherited any property from his father?
• I don't understand how the main, legendary lot that sold as 492 acres was surveyed at 600 acres. It doesn't fit the math. The math for the total 909 acres is 492 acres + 183-acre lot + 234-acre lot. Is the sentence about the survey right? If so, that would make the total 1017 acres.

–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

CaroleHenson, thanks for all your work on the article. Right now due to RL, I have almost no time for WP for a few weeks. I'll try to quickly answer these questions.

1. I did not find any mention of any inheritance. It seems like he struck out on his own and was self-made.

2. The numbers should not add up. The "legend" said Sanger bought 1000 acres and sold half for the price of the whole lot. It's not mentioned in the article, but I believe the legend said Sanger bought a single 1000 acre parcel, and the creek ran through diagonally splitting it into two 500 acres parcels, and he sold the land on one side of the creek to Higbee.

The Higbee parcel was recorded in the deed as 492 acres (roughly matching the legend's 500 acres) when he bought it from Sanger. It was later, sometime in the next 100 years, found to be closer to 600 acres.

The 909 acres is just what Sanger was thought to have owned using the numbers from the late 18th century; 909 acres is close to the 1000 acres of the legend, (although it was never one big parcel). MB 02:34, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

MB, Hey, great to see you. I don't know what rl is, but good luck with it!

I think I wasn't clear. I have discounted the 1000 after reading and have believed the land deed records to be accurate. I taken at face value that Higbee bought (or thought he bought) 492 acres. I also take at face value that there was a survey, but am confused about how it could have been 108 acres off the deed for the land.

I am sensing that there is no way to solve this riddle, but just lay out the facts, as you did quite ably.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:49, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I've got it - rl = real life. I am retired now, took a minute to compute.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Gravestone inscription

Inscription on grave of Jedediah Sanger

-

The image of the Gravestone inscription was a bit fuzzy, so I reduced the size to 80% (shown here), still fuzzy. So I typed out the inscription from the image.

Gravestone inscription

Sacred
to the memory
of
Hon. Jedediah Sanger
who died June 6,
A.D. 1829,
The founder of New Hartford.
His charities are widely extended.
And his munificence has reared.
And supported several edifices.
Devoted to the service of his Maker.
His virtues are indelibly impressed upon the
Hearts of his Countrymen.

But, I can also see that the fuzzy image has kind of a historical feel - partly due to the Times font that I was not able to format. What do you think is the best?–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:46, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Gravestone inscription

Sacred
to the memory
of
Hon. Jedediah Sanger
who died June 6,
A.D. 1829,
The founder of New Hartford.
His charities are widely extended.
And his munificence has reared.
And supported several edifices.
Devoted to the service of his Maker.
His virtues are indelibly impressed upon the
Hearts of his Countrymen.

I figured out how to change the font! So, here's a third option.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:55, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I like the third option, but I think the line breaks should match the original since I assume the original is a faithful representation of the actual carving. MB 02:37, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Okay, cool.  Done. I also fixed the punctuation earlier in the article so that it's the same as the original.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:52, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jedediah Sanger/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cavie78 (talk · contribs) 15:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I did not nominate the article, but worked on prepping the article for GA review. I can tackle the wording issues, so I'll work on what I can. MB did the incredible research for this article, and they will be better informed about substantive questions.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I'll have a look at this - sorry for the long wait for a reviewer! Cavie78 (talk) 15:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• "often established mills" Not sure "often" is the right word here. Maybe "established several mills" or similar?

I changed the sentence to "He also purchased land at Sangerfield, Skaneateles, Chittenango, and Weedsport; He established mills in some of these towns." Does that work?–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• "To traverse the local settlements" This doesn't sound right. Do you mean that he invested in the roads as they would help him travel between settlements?

Does "To facilitate travel between the settlements," work?–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• "Sanger was the namesake of a town" Think it would be better to say "Sanger gave his name to a town"

I changed it to "Sanger gave his name to a town,"–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• Not sure what the last paragraph is for - it seems to duplicate information elsewhere in the lead?

It was meant to fill in his career. I removed the redundant items: transportation and masonic temples.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Early life

• "and operating a store and tavern in Sherborn" -> "and the operation of a store and tavern in Sherborn"
• "that is listed on the" -> "which is listed on the"
• "t was built by his father c. 1734" In the last sentence you talk about "the family" so it's not clear who you mean by "his father" here

All three are  Done now. His father referred to Richard Sanger III.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:52, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Revolutionary War

• Any idea how he came by such a swift promotion?
• Any specifics about what he actually did during the war? (I'm guessing not)

It would be great to have MB's input here. In the meantime, I don't think that there's more detail about his service during the war. I think he was promoted so quickly initially because the war had just begun and they needed leaders asap - and he was considered a good candidate to lead. That is conjecture, though.

I have no further information on his service. The only documentation I could find was service-record type listings; no narrative about his time in the war. MB 15:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

New Hampshire

• "He operated the farm, a tavern and a small store on the property" This sounds a bit strange. Suggest rewording as "Alongside the farm, he operated a tavern and a small store on the property"

Sounds great,  Done.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

New Hartford

• "a year after his purchasing it"

Thanks for catching this.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• "Sanger moved his family to the unincorporated village of Whitestown in March 1789" I'm confused - he moved to Whitestown in 1788 then moved to Whitestown in 1789? Do you mean he initially moved alone? Or is this a different area?

As I understand it, yes, he moved by himself first, and then moved his family later - I am guessing waiting til either a house was built and/or when he could ensure that his family would be safe, as it was wilderness and land of Native Americans before then.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Sanger arrived in 1788 and after becoming established (purchasing land, building a house), he brought his family the next year. It would be clearer to day "Sanger moved his family from New Hampshire to join him in Whitestown in March 1789", but I don't know if that is in fact true - I have no source that says where he family stayed after the New Hampshire farm burned. Maybe "Sanger's family joined him in Whitestown in March 1789" - but that sounds a little strange to me. MB 15:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Land deals

• "of land arising after the land was omitted from a 1793 deed transferring the land" land x 3.

How is: "In 1810, Sanger was one of many claimants that sought relief from the legislature to settle a dispute over the title to 1,284 acres (520 ha) arising after the land was omitted from a 1793 deed transferring the property to Philip Schuyler from the heirs of William Cosby."?

• Also, I'm not really sure what's going on with this dispute - can you clarify

We need MB for this one.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

There was a $10,000 land sale in 1793 that was understood to be all lands south of the Mohawk River owed by the Cosby heirs. The land was made up of multiple parcels and the actual deed written up neglected to include a small strip (the 1,284 acre parcel). So technically that strip legally remained the property of the Cosby estate. Some 17 years later, Sanger was one of the leading citizens that requested that the state legislature fix this technical error so that clear title could be provided to the property.

Agriculture

• Ok

Sangerfield

• Ok

Skaneateles

• "land there. He built a dam there" there x 2

Thanks!  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Chittenango

• Ok

Weedsport

• Ok

Local government

• Ok

State offices

• Ok

Seneca Turnpike

• Ok

Chenango Turnpike

• Ok

Newspaper

• "founded the first newspaper printed in the state west of Albany" What state?

NY -  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Paris Furnace

• "Products were sold throughout the state" Again, what state?

NY -  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Federal Company

• Ok

Bank of Utica

• "n 1812, he was named one of the directors of the Bank of Utica when it opened on December 8, 1812" No need to say 1812 twice

Absolutely! Thanks.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Religious organizations

• "In 1792, they agreed to build a church" Who is they?

The congregation.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• "structure, since 1801 the New Hartford Presbyterian Church, is still a prominent structure in the village" Structure x 2

Thanks. Changed second use to building.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• "Sanger made significant contributions for the construction of St. Stephen's Church" Where is this? New Hartford?

Yes, made the edit.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Other organizations

• Ok

Immediate

• "Sanger built them a house, now known as the Eames mansion" In New Hartford?

Added New Hartford.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Notable relatives

• "Sanger's only younger sibling" This could be slightly clearer - I'm not sure whether you mean Asa was Jedediah's only sibling, or if she was the only one of his brothers and sisters who was younger than him

I just said younger brother, it's easier.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Death and legacy

• "Sanger died June 6, 1829" -> "Sanger died on June 6, 1829"

 Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• "at age 79" -> "at the age of 79"

 Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• Any idea why his body was moved?

The final cemetery is a large perpetually maintained cemetery with many prominent burials. The original cemetery is gone and the plot on the farm is probably gone too. It was probably felt that he deserved a more prominent burial place. MB 15:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• "There are two New York Historic Markers that tell about Sanger" -> "There are two New York Historic Markers that commemorate Sanger"

Lovely,  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• "and still used for ceremonial purposes" -> "and is still used for ceremonial purposes"

Yes, thanks!  Done!–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Images

• Great! All have appropriate licences

General

• There are a few single sentence paragraphs, that could be perhaps merged. There are also some cites that don't appear after a mark of punctuation

A really really well researched article that doesn't require much work to meet GA standard @MB:. Placing on hold for now Cavie78 (talk) 19:45, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Cavie78, Thanks so much for the thorough and thoughtful review. I fixed the wording changes. Regarding the few single sentence paragraphs, I think you are talking about the Other businesses section. Two of the sections have a fair amount of content - two don't. The only way that I can think to merge the information is to remove all subsection headings - and put the two short sections into one paragraph. Would that work?

I don't know what you mean about cites not appearing after a mark of punctuation. Are you saying that where a cite covers multiple sentences (like the first paragraph in Religious organizations where the one citation applies to the entire paragraph), you think that the citation tag should be duplicated at the end of each sentence?

There are some comments that are not addressed that MB may be able to answer (e.g., Revolutionary War, Land deals dispute question, etc.) So, if we could give him/her a bit of time, that would be great.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for making the changes CaroleHenson - they all look good. Regarding the cites, I mean that a cite shouldn't appear in the middle of a sentence unless it follows a comma. There was at least one case of this... but I can't find it now! Do what you can to merge single sentence paragraphs, but if you can't that's fine. Cavie78 (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cavie78 and MB:, I made the changes to the mid-sentence, non-punctuated citations here. If it's ok not to merge the sections, that would be great.

I don't understand what is wrong with "non-punctuated citations". They are common, I use them often, and formally endorsed ([inline citations] are generally added either directly following the fact that they support, or at the end of the sentence that they support, following any punctuation.) in WP:INTREF2. MB 15:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi MB, I reworded some sentences so that the punctuation stood where it was placed, but in other cases I did move them to the end of the sentence. Are you saying that the ones that were moved to the end of the sentence should be moved back?–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

CaroleHenson, I think a citation should be close to the fact that it supports even if that is mid-sentence. I haven't looked at your changes, but generally if I put a citation in mid-sentence it is because it supported a fact just prior but not the whole sentence. I would prefer they be moved back. This is consistent with WP:CITEDENSE; I have never heard that inline citations must follow punctuation. Here is another random article with many mid-sentences citations for example. MB 16:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

MB This is  Done. There were 5 affected sentences - 2 of which I just made minor punctuation edits and 3 where I moved the citations to the end of the sentence. I reverted the three sentences back to their original placement. The net-net of the changes is here, with an unrelated wording change to the intro.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:55, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I added some comments under the Revolutionary war and Land deals sections above. I think that MB's input would be helpful, though, to have a fuller response.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

In the intro, I changed one sentence to: "Among his various business pursuits, he was engaged in agriculture and manufacturing."–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:56, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cavie78 and CaroleHenson: I have added some comments to the few remaining questions not addressed already by Carole. MB 15:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you both for your hard work. I'm happy to promote - congrats (and apologies once again that you had to wait so long for a review). Regarding cites, the relevant point is "citation markers are normally placed after adjacent punctuation such as periods (full stops) and commas" WP:CITE This is fairly standard stuff. I have been told multiple times by different reviewers to move cites after a mark of punctuation myself. Cavie78 (talk) 20:00, 31 May 2020 (UTC)