Talk:Jean Berger

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Composers

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I think I fixed the unreference

I added a reference that supports all the material in the article, except the place of death. Hopefully I was justified in removing the unreferenced tag, even though that last item needs a reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.81.121.10 (talk) 01:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

Is there consensus for an infobox on this page, contrary to the recommendation given here? Personally, I think the Composers Project is right, particularly on their point #2.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:31, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there consensus for removing useful information? This infobox does not duplicate the lead, as it provides information not found there. For example, his places of birth and death are mentioned in the infobox. By WP:OPENPARA, "Birth and death places should be mentioned in the body if known, and in the lead if they are relevant to the person's notability; they should not be mentioned within the opening brackets." Since they are not relevant to his notability, they are not to be mentioned in the lead. But they can be mentioned in the infobox, so it isn't redundant. The infobox also establishes his musical context by providing a link to 20th-century music, which is not linked or mentioned anywhere else in the article. Angr (talk) 19:58, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If the infobox contains information not in the article, then it is not reliably referenced and so should not be in the infobox. If the lede does not adequately summarize the important contents of the article, then it should be expanded to do so. However, you are probably not aware that there is an issue with infoboxes for classical-composer articles. If you have not read the Composers' Project position linked above, then you may care to do so, as well as the similar and slightly more specific one here. While you are about it, you may wish to survey a few representative articles on indisputably major composers, such as this one, and this one, and this one, and then ask yourself whether an infobox on a composer article isn't actually a badge proclaiming third-rate status.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:41, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am well aware that WP Classical music has an irrational phobia of infoboxes. What I don't understand is why its members are so determined to prevent readers from finding useful information quickly, but instead force them to scroll through screenfuls of text to find what they're looking for. (And does the fact that Jean Berger was a 20th-century composer really need to be referenced?) Where did Bach die, and how old was he? Where were Mozart and Beethoven born, and where did they die, and how old were they? That information isn't in the leads of those articles, but it would be in an infobox. (Bach's birthplace is mentioned in the lead, in violation of WP:OPENPARA.) I'm certainly glad other projects don't think infoboxes are "badges proclaiming third-rate status"; I'm happy that articles on countries and cities have a box in which I can quickly find info like population, size, official languages, and government officials rather than having to slog through the entire article to glean that information out of the body of the text. I also don't understand why you think infoboxes are the only things that require consensus before they can be added. My other edits to the article didn't have consensus either and yet you restored them without prior discussion, which seems WP:POINTy to me. Angr (talk) 10:50, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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