Talk:Jaysh al-Sha'bi

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Military history: Middle East

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Name

I've come across more than 25 spellings and translations of this group's name. A Google search showed that Jaysh al-Sha'bi is, by far, the most common spelling of the Arabic. Per WP:COMMONNAME, that should be the name of the article. To search, write the name inside quote marks and Syria outside the quote marks. Here are the results:

Jaysh Shabi [0] / Jaysh al-Shabi [7,300 hits]
Jaysh Sha’bi [2] / Jaysh al-Sha’bi [74,000 hits]
Jaysh Sha’abi [1] / Jaysh al-Sha’abi [22 hits]
Jaysh Shaabi [6] / Jaysh al-Shaabi [30,900 hits]

Jaish Shabi [7] / Jaish al-Shabi [7 hits]
Jaish Sha’bi [1] / Jaish al-Sha’bi [24,800 hits]
Jaish Sha’abi [0] / Jaish al-Sha’abi [10 hits]
Jaish Shaabi [12] / Jaish al-Shaabi [9 hits]

There are also a few English names, including:

People's Army
Popular Army
People's Committees
Popular Committees
National Defense Force; National Defense Forces
National Defense Army

I think the most popular of these should be put in the article.

Does anyone know if the Syrian Government has an 'official' English translation of the name, or a name it always uses when referring to this group in English? ~Asarlaí 01:35, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The National Defense Force is apparently a new entity which collects all the former ones. A replacement, and not merely an alternate name. Jaysh means army, and sha'ab means people, for the record. FunkMonk (talk) 02:35, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jaysh al-Sha'bi, National Defense Force, People's Army a.s.f. are all names for the same organization. Check the sources in the article. ~Asarlaí 03:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, the NDF was only created this year. All sources state it is new: http://www.businessinsider.com/women-joining-syrian-military-2013-1

This article (dated 19 Feb 2013) says that Jaysh al-Sha'bi, National Defense Force and People's Army refer to the same organization, and that it has been active since October 2012 or before. The US branded Jaysh al-Sha'bi a terrorist organization in December 2012. However, I've come upon other websites implying that the Jaysh and NDF are not one organization. Maybe Jaysh has been re-named (or re-organized into) the NDF, or maybe one group is a part of the other. We'll have to wait until we get more details.

Also, I came upon this article, which says that the NDF was created out of the Popular/People's Committees, so I'll put that in the article. ~Asarlaí 20:00, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"In the villages around Aqrabieh, the Popular Committees have started to merge with the newly formed National Defense Forces (NDF). The idea behind the NDF is to unite the various Popular Committees – which tend to be of one color in terms of religion or sect, depending on the village – into a single mixed formation in order to prevent sectarian divisions from becoming institutionalized in the area.

The NDF are organized along the same lines as the Syrian army, divided into groups of 30 that are then dispersed throughout the basin’s villages.".[1] FunkMonk (talk) 16:27, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

In the article, it is said that 'it is unclear whether al-Jaysh al-Sha'bi and the NDF/NDA is the same organization'. I, however, assume that it is, since:

a. This militia has been formed over a year ago, but still barely nothing is known about the group. Whereas the National Defense Force regulary shows up in photos, videos, news reports etc.
b. I can't imagine why a government would simultaniously form and train two militias with the same allegiance, training and combat function.
c. If you combine the estimated numbers of the two groups (60-100.000 for the NDF and 50.000 for Jaysh al-Sha'bi), it would almost double the size of Syrian government forces. This seems implausible, since this would've most likely had enormous effects on the battlefield, turning the tide in favour of the Syrian government.

Given these three facts (in particular the first one), I would suggest deleting this page or merging it with that of the National Defense Force, because it seems, due to lack of evidence, that the Jaysh al-Sha'bi either doesn't exist or that it is the same thing as the National Defense Force.

Terrortank (talk) 12:33, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge. See my last comment above. FunkMonk (talk) 12:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, that'll teach me not to read the sections above. I'm glad, however, that I'm not the only one who's curious about whether or not the organisation is operational. If no one objects, I will make a merger proposal. Terrortank (talk) 12:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge. There is no mention of this unit in Syrian media. Most pro-gov militias have been integrated into the NDFArmynut15 (talk) 18:00, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

any news?Armynut15 (talk) 21:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, Jaysh al-Shaabi is a permanent faction of the Syrian army, existed long before the civil war, while the National defense were founded during the ongoing civil war.--Zyzzzzzy (talk) 05:01, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

See discussions and sources above, it has been absorbed into the NDF, so it is hardly "permanent". FunkMonk (talk) 05:12, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Zyzzzzzy, "Jaysh al-Shaabi" has been active since the 80s, the NDF Was created in 2013 and I have yet to see a source here that links the two directly.--PLNR (talk) 05:32, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps because you're not looking at the former discussion, as I just said? So let me repeat: "In the villages around Aqrabieh, the Popular Committees have started to merge with the newly formed National Defense Forces (NDF). The idea behind the NDF is to unite the various Popular Committees – which tend to be of one color in terms of religion or sect, depending on the village – into a single mixed formation in order to prevent sectarian divisions from becoming institutionalized in the area.

The NDF are organized along the same lines as the Syrian army, divided into groups of 30 that are then dispersed throughout the basin’s villages.".[2] FunkMonk (talk) 16:27, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but this article is about "Jaysh al-Sha'bi". --PLNR (talk) 05:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Another source stating this was merged into NDF: "However, prior to that, the NDF did not play a security role. Rather, its forces were originally created as informal popular committees (lijan shaabiyya), centered in villages and neighborhoods and aimed at protecting their own local areas." http://carnegieendowment.org/sada/2014/06/03/securing-syrian-regime/hcg0 FunkMonk (talk) 13:46, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

National Defense Army

I removed this bit [3] Since the article has no mention of the Jaysh al-Sha'bi force. If you have a WP:RS that the militias are part of that new formation, then please re-add this in chronologically correct order(not 2013 event before 2012). --PLNR (talk) 11:45, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jaysh al-Sha'bi is wrong!

However one may spell the name, it is never "Jaysh al-Sha'bi" but must be "al-Jaysh al-Sha'bi". "Sha'bi" is an adjective and therefore the adjective always needs the article, when "Jaysh" gets it. It's either "al-Jaysh al-Sha'bi" or "Jaysh Sha'bi", but the version without article would be very uncommon for a certain, known entity. If the second word were a noun, that is "Sha'b" instead of "Sha'bi", "Jaysh al-Sha'b" would be the form, because in a genitive construction only the second element gets the article. Metron (talk) 09:20, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]