Talk:Jayjay Helterbrand

Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Edofedinburgh 00:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

Individual was removed from the list List of Filipino Americans here. Do we have a reliable source that verifies the subject's nationality. If the individual is a Dual citizen, this removal could be considered improper. If he can be considered a resident of the United States, regardless of legality, this removal could be considered improper. Opinions? --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:49, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

It looks to me as if the removal was not improper, and that the burden of proof for citing a verifiable reliable supporting source lies with the person restoring the removed material.

• The List of Filipino Americans article says, "This is a list of Filipino Americans who have made significant contributions to the American culture, politics, or society. It also includes those with notable mentions in the American media."
• It appears to me as if that article relies on the Filipino American article to define that term.
• The Filipino American article says, "Filipino Americans are Americans of Filipino ancestry."
• As I take that, in order to be included in this list, a person must be (1) an American, and (2) of Filipino ancestry.
• It looks to me as if individual was added to this article in this March 2009 edit without a supporting source being cited.
• Even if a supporting source regarding status as "an American" and regarding Filipino ancestry were cited in the article on the individual, it would not be sufficient to support such an assertion in this article (see WP:CIRCULAR).
• The article on the individual asserts, "Filipino professional basketball player", without citing a supporting source.
• WP:BURDEN says, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. You may remove any material lacking a reliable source that directly supports it. ..." (emphasis mine -- emphasis differs in the quoted policy). The quoted policy goes on to say a bit more, but the additional unquoted content does not impact the quoted content.
• Editors in a WP article may not properly override Wikipedia policy by consensus to, for example, lower the standards set by wikipedia's verifiability policy on an article-by-article basis.

Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:13, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

This article here, indicates that he resided in the United States for the majority of his minor years, before being recruited to play basketball in the Philippines. Would this long period of residence be sufficient to consider him a Filipino American? --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:31, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

My guess would be not, if he did not obtain U.S. nationality during that residence, as a consequence of that residence, or by some other means (i.e., if he is not a U.S. National, he is not "an American". Sidebar note: there is a difference between "Citizenship" and "Nationality" in re the U.S., but not in re the Philippines; but I don't think that difference comes into play here). However, I am relying on my own analysis above for the sourcing only implicitly indicated in the List of Filipino Americans article for the definition of the term Filipino American for purposes of inclusion in that article, and I am second-guessing what the consensus of editorial community of the Filipino American article might be regarding that. That latter article says, re the American part of Filipino–American, "an American" in re the definition of that term. I take "an American", there (which is not explicitly defined there), to mean "a person holding U.S. Nationality" within the meaning of United States nationality law.

For comparison, I have lived in the Philippines for over fifteen years, but I am not by any stretch of the imagination "a Filipino". Even if I had resided in the Philippines for the majority of my minor years, I would not be "a Filipino" unless I had acquired Filipino nationality by operation of RA9139, The Administrative naturalization Law of 2000 (which might apply in that situation) or by some other means. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 09:33, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment, but I ask because other editors may define American more broadly to include those who have resided in the United States, or are present residents (irregardless of whether they do so legally or illegally). This also goes into the population count done by the the census, which does not factor into whether or not someone is a citizen, national, legal resident, or illegal alien, and it would be more difficult until more specific numbers (probably be out by 2013 (if the output timeline is the same as was for the 2000 census)) to determine how many of the census count are or are not citizens.

This maybe related to a dispute I had regarding the nationality of Tila Nguyen, where consensus there stated that she was American, even if there was no verifiable reference indicating whether she was ever naturalized. It was not one of my better periods on Wikipedia, but I have learned from it, as is often the case in those events. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 12:33, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

File nominated for deletion on commons

file=c:File:Helterbrand.jpg|patten=No permission indicated subpage= 

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