Talk:Jay E. Adams

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Excessive & malformed bibliography

The bibliography section is far larger than the main body of the article, and as such is clearly excessive and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. It is also in alphabetical order, rather than chronological, as MOS:WORKS requires. I am therefore moving the bulk of it here to talk. If anybody believes that any (small subset) of these works is particularly prominent or representative, please feel free to reinclude in chronological order. Please also include year of publication and publisher. I have also added a WorldCat link to the ELs for anybody interested in Adams' complete works. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 06:56, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

• A Call for Discernment: Distinguishing Truth from Error in Today's Church. ISBN 1-889032-04-2.
• A Consumer's Guide to Preaching. ISBN 0-89693-398-9.
• A Thirst for Wholeness: How to Gain Wisdom from the Book of James. ISBN 0-9643556-9-8.
• Acts (Christian Counselor's Commentary). ISBN 1-889032-14-X.
• Are You Ill?.
• Back to the Blackboard: Design for a Bibical Christian School. ISBN 1-889032-05-0.
• Christ and Your Problems. ISBN 0-87552-011-1.
• Christian Counselor's Casebook, The. ISBN 0-310-51161-5.
• Christian Counselor's Commentary Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon. ISBN 0-9643556-2-0.
• Christian Counselor's New Testament and Proverbs-OE. ISBN 1-889032-47-6.
• Christian Living in the World. ISBN 978-1-889032-10-8.
• Committed to Craftmanship. ISBN 1-889032-23-9.
• Compassionate Counseling. ISBN 1-889032-59-X.
• Counsel from Psalm 119. ISBN 1-889032-07-7.
• Critical Stages of Biblical Counseling. ISBN 1-889032-30-1.
• Day by Day Along the Way. ISBN 978-1-889032-66-5.
• Encouragement Isn't Enough. ISBN 1-889032-57-3.
• Essays on counseling. ISBN 0-310-51171-2.
• Fifty Difficult Passages Explained. ISBN 1-889032-64-6.
• From Forgiven to Forgiving: Learning to Forgive One Another God's Way. ISBN 1-879737-12-4.
• Godliness Through Discipline. ISBN 0-87552-021-9.
• Greg Dawson and the Psychology Class. ISBN 1-889032-63-8.
• Growing by Grace: Sanctification and Counseling (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-42-5.
• Handbook of Church Discipline: A Right and Privilege of Every Church Member (Jay Adams Library). ISBN 0-310-51191-7.
• Hebrews, James, I & II Peter, and Jude (Christian Counselor's Commentary). ISBN 1-889032-01-8.
• Helps for Counselors: A mini-manual for Christian Counseling. ISBN 0-8010-0156-0.
• Hope for the New Millennium. ISBN 1-889032-18-2.
• How to Handle Trouble. ISBN 0-87552-076-6.
• How to Help People Change. ISBN 0-310-51181-X.
• How to Overcome Evil. ISBN 1-59638-222-8.
• I & II Corinthians (Christian Counselor's Commentary). ISBN 0-9643556-1-2.
• I & II Timothy, Titus (Christian Counselor's Commentary). ISBN 0-9643556-5-5.
• Importance of Faith in Counseling. ISBN 1-889032-58-1.
• Insight & Creativity in Christian Counseling: A Study of the Usual & the Unique. ISBN 1-889032-29-8.
• Is All Truth God's Truth? (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-40-9.
• Joyfully Counseling People with New Hearts. ISBN 1-889032-62-X.
• Keeping the Sabbath Today?. ISBN 1-889032-61-1.
• Language of Counseling (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-56-5.
• Lectures of Counseling. ISBN 0-8010-0122-6.
• Life Under the Son: Counsel from the Book of Ecclesiastes. ISBN 1-889032-16-6.
• Maintaining the Delicate Balance in Christian Living: Biblical Balance in a World That's Tilted Toward Sin!. ISBN 1-889032-11-5.
• Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage in the Bible. ISBN 0-310-51111-9.
• Power of Error. ISBN 0-8010-0141-2.
• Preaching According to the Holy Spirit. ISBN 978-1-889032-17-7.
• Preaching That Persuades (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-55-7.
• Preaching to the Heart (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-34-4.
• Preaching with Parables (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-54-9.
• PREACHING WITH PURPOSE the urgent task of homiletics. ISBN 0-310-51091-0.
• Preterism: Orthodox or Unorthodox? (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-44-1.
• Proverbs (Christian Counselor's Commentary). ISBN 1-889032-03-4.
• Pulpit Speech (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 978-1-889032-35-1.
• Ready to Restore: The Layman's Guide to Christian Counseling. ISBN 978-0-87552-070-4.
• Romans, I & II Thessalonians, and Philippians (Christian Counselor's Commentary). ISBN 0-9643556-6-3.
• Shepherding God's Flock: A Handbook on Pastoral Ministry, Counseling and Leadership. ISBN 0-310-51071-6.
• Sibling Rivalry in the Household of God. ISBN 978-1-879737-77-8.
• Signs & Wonders: In the Last Days. ISBN 1-889032-19-0.
• Solving Marriage Problems. ISBN 0-310-51081-3.
• Studies in Preaching; Volume 1. ISBN 0-310-51171-2.
• Teaching to Observe: The Counselor as Teacher. ISBN 0-9643556-8-X.
• The Biblical View of Self-Esteem, Self-Love, and Self-Image. ISBN 978-0-89081-553-3.
• The Case of the Hopeless Marriage: A Nouthetic Counseling Case from Beginning to End. ISBN 1-889032-52-2.
• The Christian's Guide to Guidance: How to Make Biblical Decisions in Everyday Life. ISBN 1-889032-06-9.
• The Gospel of John & Letters of John and Jesus (Christian Counselor's Commentary). ISBN 1-889032-08-5.
• The Gospel of Luke (Christian Counselor's Commentary). ISBN 1-889032-09-3.
• The Gospels of Matthew and Mark (Christian Counselor's Commentary). ISBN 1-889032-12-3.
• The Grand Demonstration. ISBN 0-941717-06-2.
• The Meaning and Mode of Baptism. ISBN 0-87552-043-X.
• The Place of Authority in Christ's Church (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-45-X.
• The Practical Encyclopedia of Christian Counseling. ISBN 1-889032-46-8.
• The Time Is at Hand. ISBN 1-889032-24-7.
• The Time of the End: Daniel's Prophecy Reclaimed. ISBN 1-889032-21-2.
• The Use of the Rod and Staff: A Neglected Aspect of Shepherding (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-41-7.
• Theology of Christian Counseling, A. ISBN 0-310-51101-1.
• Together for Good: Counseling and the Providence of God. ISBN 1-889032-65-4.
• Truth Apparent. ISBN 978-1-889032-33-7.
• Truth Applied (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 1-889032-32-8.
• Types of People: How to Counsel Them Biblically. ISBN 1-889032-67-0.
• Visions of the Revelation. ISBN 0-89865-824-1.
• What about nouthetic counseling: A question and answer book with history, help and hope for the Christian counselor. ISBN 0-8010-0114-5.
• What to Do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures. ISBN 0-9643556-7-1.
• What to Do When Counseling Fails (Ministry Monographs for Modern Times). ISBN 978-1-889032-43-6.
• Winning the War Within: Biblical Strategy for Spiritual Warefare. ISBN 0-89081-732-4.
• Wrinkled But Not Ruined: Counsel for the Elderly. ISBN 1-889032-13-1.

[ End of excessive & malformed bibliography. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 06:56, 16 July 2011 (UTC) ]

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am proposing that Jay E. Adams bibliography be merged here, most probably as a bare redirect, for the following reasons:

1. Lack of notability (listing of Adams works in a couple of bibliographies does not amount to "significant coverage" or "discuss[ion] as a group or set").
2. WP:MERGE#Rationales #2 (Overlap) & #4 (Context).

I would further note that between this biography, the bibliography and Nouthetic counseling, there is probably only enough third-party coverage to sustain a single article. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 03:26, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - bibliography meets WP:NOTESAL requirements and nom's real intent to remove this content completely from WP is evident in the above comments. There are 100s of complete bibliographies in WP of notable authors. The number of entries in the bibliography is irrelevant to whether or not it is discriminate or not. --Mike Cline (talk) 03:33, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• (i) Bald assertion that "bibliography meets WP:NOTESAL requirements" amounts to WP:ITSNOTABLE. (ii) As I have already explicitly drawn Mike's attention to the fact that redirection is explicitly countenanced as a remedy for lack of notability, his accusations of "real intent" amount to nothing more than a blatant violation of WP:AGF. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 03:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• If you belive this list is not notable, take it to AfD, don't try and rationalize a merge that effectively deletes it without debate. --Mike Cline (talk) 03:47, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

If notability cannot be established, the article is likely to be merged, redirected, or deleted.

— {{Notability}}

• Your demand that I "take it to AfD" is thus WP:COMPLETEBOLLOCKS. On closer examination, your demand is also in explicit violation of WP:BEFORE C4: "If the topic is not important enough to merit an article on its own, consider merging or redirecting to an existing article." Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 03:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• I believe I am not demanding anything. I contend the list is notable IAW WP:NOTESAL and have added sources that support that contention. You disagree. The merge in the manner you are suggesting, effectively deletes the content in this list. I oppose that. Because we disagree on the Notability question, the only reasonable resolution is AfD where others can judge the list's notability. --Mike Cline (talk) 04:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: I would further point out that even if "discuss[ion of Adams' works] as a group or set" existed, it would almost certainly amount to discussion of Nouthetic counseling, rendering the bibliography even furtherly overlapping. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 03:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• Merge The person is notable exclusively because of some of his writing so there is obviously overlap. At the same time, it doesn't look like his writing as a corpus has been covered "as a group or set by independent reliable sources" per NOTESAL. That leads me to believe that the more significant (if not notable) of his works should be discussed in the main article and the "bibliography" redirected there. This also seems to fail Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(stand-alone_lists)#Common_selection_criteria since bullets 1 and 2 obviosuly do not apply and fails three because it is not "reasonably short (less than 32K)" (it is only less than 32k because it contains less than full bibligraphic info about each entry and so little wikilinking), is not "useful (e.g., for navigation)", and is not "interesting to readers", let alone all three. It really does seem not useful. Adam's can put a list of his works on his website, and keep it more updated. Why do that at WP? Further, "if a complete list would include hundreds of entries, then you should use the notability standard to provide focus to the list." Per his bio, he has written more than 100 books, and who knows how many other shorter works. As for Hran's "real intent", it seems to be exactly what is proposed. I would make the same argument at AfD. Novaseminary (talk) 04:23, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment If the bibliography does go to AfD, please note it here so those of us who have given up watching the bibliography and any others watching this article will know it. And an observation: I don't mean to cast stones, but it seems odd to me to spend so much effort shoring up the bibliography when the main article is nearly worthless. Novaseminary (talk) 04:30, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.