Talk:Janakananda Saraswati

A rewrite

The article was too much like an advertisement. I have replaced the promotional tone and claims with more neutral information, suitable for an encyclopedia. I have also removed unsourced claims of SJ having strong influence on the use of yoga and meditation in Northern Europe, and about "scientists" and "research". If anybody wants to re-add these claims to the article, please also add reliable sources for them. Bishonen | talk 17:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Infobox and birth name

Pedroaybar on my talk page wrote, quote:

Hello MarB4,

Apologies that I didn't communicate properly to justify my changes.

I propose removing Swami Janakananda's Christian name as a respectful gesture towards his wishes. Normally, once they have received a spiritual name, sannyasins give up using or even alluding to their birth names. I know that Swamiji is very particular about this matter, going as far as trying to change his birth certificate. Can we agree to not show this piece of data? It anyway doesn't add anything practical to the article.

Regarding the infobox template, I suggest that Hindu Leader is more appropriate to Swami Janakananda's article, as it contains fields that are more suitable to a Swami (e.g. Guru/Teacher, Philosophy, etc.). The current infobox is far too general, being simply for a person. Could we use the Hindu Leader infobox, which is the most commonly used for Swamis? You will find it in use in many similar articles (for Swamis Vivekananda, Sivananda, Dayananda, Nigamananda, among others).

Kind regards Pedroaybar (talk) 11:20, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Pedro, and welcome to Wikipedia. Civility is one of the five pillars of WP and your polite apology is accepted with thanks, but I would have assumed good faith just the same in case of this your first real edit.

Regarding which infobox template to apply I was initially reluctant to use Hindu leader as Scandinavian Yoga and Meditation School states to be "free of [...] religious interests", and while Janakananda is a prominent figure in tantric yoga, meditation and philosophy, I was unsure if he thus qualified, so to speak, to be a Hindu leader or teacher. Reading your points of view and giving the question new thoughts I do concur with you: the Hindu leader infobox contains code appropriate for the article subject and will enhance the contents quality, and the average reader of the article will have no idea of which template is used anyway.

I will replace the current infobox with the Hindu leader infobox and include the quote you have given in your 13 May 2011 edit as well as the photo you uploaded to Commons the same day.

I will further reference the quote combining URL to the online English translation and cite the original source to the best of my ability; while I do have Bindu magazine #7 (Summer 1973), I do not have a copy of Bindu #8, but as the issues of Bindu at that time followed a spring-summer-fall-winter publication cycle, I have assumed a publication date around autumnal equinox and put in 23 September 1973 as per HKO.GOV.HK. Should you know otherwise your correction is welcome and maybe you can help out and expand the citation with the appropriate page numbers from Bindu #8? I have left the empty pages field there for that same purpose.

(Edit: Erratum to previous section: I notice now that the English language edition of Bindu follows its own numeration, thus English Bindu #8 from which the quote mentioned above and now included in the article infobox is taken, corresponds not to Danish Bindu #8, but to Danish #24. This issue was published in (late) 1995, but I avoid making any wild guesses about more precisely when, and as I can not be certain that page numbers corresponds between the two different versions I avoid for now updates of the page field. Article has been updated accordingly. MarB4 (talk) 22:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC))

I will in regards to the photo correct the spelling of Aix-les-Bains in the caption attribute and have added an alt text that you might want to give me your opinion on or suggest revisions to.

As for your proposal to exclude the birth name of Janakananda, please allow me to return later with my thoughts on the matter.

MarB4 (talk) 18:37, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Hello MarB4. Thanks for reconsidering the use of the infobox. I also reacted at the name of the template, as Swami Janakananda is clearly not a Hindu, but then thought that maybe the name of the object doesn't matter so much.

I have changed the publication year for Bindu 8, since the English edition came out in early 1996. I have also added the pages where the quote appears (10-11). Regarding alt-text of the photo, I think what you have written is quite appropiate.

I am reviewing the paragraph order in this article to see if we can improve the flow of information, and would also like to add a bit more about the Three-Month course which, in the words of Janakananda, is the most essential of his teachings. I will come back with some suggestions about that shortly.

Pedroaybar (talk) 13:26, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Pedro. Returning now with a little delay to your proposed exclusion of Janakananda's Christian name, I first of all notice that you are not contesting the sources and that you seem to be able to confirm the references already given that the article subject's legal name continues to be Jørgen Dreiager as opposed to his monastic/spiritual name Janakananda (Saraswati) with or without the prefixed honorific Swami.

Let me then make sure that I fully understand what it is you propose removed from the article. The legal, given first name Jørgen is figuring in the title of one of the two 2009 Danish Broadcasting Corporation radio interviews with Janakananda, titled "Fra Jørgen til Yogi" (Eng. lit.: "From Jørgen to Yogi". In Danish the J in Jørgen and the Y in Yogi are identically pronounced (the palatal approximant) creating an ear-catching alliteration.) and the name Jørgen is mentioned in both interviews. Both these interviews with Janakananda are already used as references in the article, one of them introduced by yourself, therefor I assume that the proposed deletion more specifically is Janakananda's full legal name Jørgen Dreiager and references to his full legal name as per your 13 May 2011 edit. (You actually - accidentally? - left one reference to Jørgen Dreiager in the resulting article text, look here, namely the flattering mention he gets in Jørgensen, Aage (1983). Det alternative teater i Danmark (in Danish). Drama. p. 115. ISBN 9788774193067. Den samlende skikkelse omkring forestillingen hed Jørgen Dreiager. Han havde tidligere lavet nogle enkelte ting på Studenterscenen blandt andet en Polyt-revy, hvor han forsøgte at presse traditionelt revy-materiale ind i en Batman-ramme. I dag har han under navnet Swami Janakananda en stor meditationsforretning. Eng.: "The uniting figure of the [theatrical] performance was Jørgen Dreiager. [...] He now [=1983] under the name Swami Janakananda has a large meditation business.")

I have had a good look around on WP to get an idea of consensus on this matter:

The guideline says "For people who are best known by a pseudonym, the legal name should usually appear first in the article, followed closely by the pseudonym. Follow this practice even if the article itself is titled with the pseudonym." I will update the lead.

But should the birth name of an individual with an article on WP be excluded for any reason? Beside name change by change of religious conviction (or in the case of Janakananda maybe rather the adoption of a monastic name upon initiation), writers' use of a noms de plume, actors' use of a stage name or simply the change of family name by marriage could serve as examples. WP:Names says nothing about this. I have looked around and have failed to find a case where there has been a discussion similar to here, but I suggest you search yourself.

You suggested the use of the Hindu leader infobox to which I concurred, and you notice the inclusion of a birth_name field which to me indicates that the information when known is to be included. I can't find anything mentioned in the help pages and the guidelines as to the opposite. Can you?

You used as an argument for the infobox change that Hindu leader is in use in similar articles on Swami Dayananda Saraswati, Swami Nigamananda, Sivananda Saraswati and Swami Vivekananda. All these include birth names. I then looked for 19th and 20th century swamis and gurus with personal articles on WP among those mentioned on List of Hindu gurus and saints and in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Hindu_gurus and out of 30+ found only 3 living persons where birth names were omitted.

Based on the above I think it is fair to say, that consensus is to include birth names/legal names.

You refer to Janakananda as Swamiji. Swami per se is a honorific and honorifics are generally not encouraged on Wikipedia according to MOS:HONORIFIC. The suffixed -ji makes for an even higher degree of respectfulness. In yoga and meditation Swamiji is a designation reserved for ones guru. That makes sense when considering your main argument for deletion of Janakananda's legal name: "...a respectful gesture towards his wishes". May I ask how well you know the article subject and how you are affiliated with him currently? MarB4 •ɯɒɹ• 23:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)