Talk:Jan Morris

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A news item involving Jan Morris was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 22 November 2020.

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Untitled

In order to clear this talk page up for future work and discussion, I made a subpage where I've moved the discussion regarding the appropriateness of mentioning Jan Morris's former name in the article lede (or in the article at all). Please browse through the past discussion on the subject before making changes in this regard, as it is a contentious issue.

/Former name discussion

I've also added/revised remaining section headings to make them more appropriate for future discussion. Gracehoper (talk) 17:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Practice is to archive, not create sub-pages, and rather than arbitrarily arhciving a single section, or group of section, all sections before a certain date would be archived. So, the next section would be archived as well. There is guidance on the LGBT project pages for how we deal with personal pronouns when gender is reassigned at WP:WikiProject LGBT studies#Guidelines Mish (talk) 23:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pronoun usage

What's the protocol for personal pronouns for people who have changed expressed gender? I generally call someone "she" if she wants to be seen as female, and "he" if he wants to be seen as male, whatever they wish. But in this article we are dealing with the history of someone who wanted to be seen as male at one time, and then later wanted to be seen as female. Should we use "he" for the early history and "she" for the later, in the same article? Maybe polite, but a bit confusing! The Guardian article I cited has the same problem, and does exactly this. Emrys2 07:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's not so much protocol as basic good manners to do as you do! As for the article: I'm not a transsexual, but it seems to me at any rate that it's got the pronouns just right. garik 00:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that using "she" is wrong, but the Bradley Manning page is even worse.

86.128.235.70 (talk) 16:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral phrasing re: gender assignment

I reverted the edit that changed "assigned male at birth" to "born a male", because on Wikipedia we prioritize neutral point of view ahead of "conventional language". "Male" is a loaded term that is used in the vernacular to refer to both gender and sex. From the perspective of gender, some perspectives say that nobody is born with a particular gender. "Assigned male at birth" is a more neutral phrasing, in my opinion, because it sticks to the facts. Feel free to discuss here. SparsityProblem (talk) 23:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I agree. "assigned" sounds as if there was some reason to have to make a choice. It is misleading people to think tht at birth for most babies there is even any hesitation about what sex they are considered to be. PhilomenaO'M (talk) 20:44, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The issue has just arisen again. I am not sure how I stand on this; where is the guideline about prioritizing NPOV to colloquialism? Something else that just got changed is the name description while in military. A male name was used in the military, and a female one after; an editor has changed the use of female name in the military to male. What is the way to describe a person's history when they change their name? Should histories retroactively refer to them by their new name? Blue Rasberry 15:41, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose I just sidestepped the issue by editing it to leave only a last name. Blue Rasberry 15:42, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I did a bit of clearing up of 'he's that should be 'she's, and one or two other trivial things. Mish (talk) 19:44, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lead paragraph

It seems to me that Conundrum ought to be mentioned in the lead of this article. I say this because it is a well-known book which many consider the first of its kind, and it seems likely that Jan Morris is mentioned as often as the author of Conundrum as she is as the author of Pax Britannica. I don't want to re-ignite the battle regarding names in the lead, but perhaps mentioning a book that she is well-known for having written, and which takes as its subject her gender identity and transition, in the lead of the article would be the most successful way of mentioning her transition and former name in the way it respectfully ought to be: as subject-matters she has addressed as an author.

I want to make sure there is no major disagreement before doing so. Thoughts? Gracehoper (talk) 17:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that for trans people Conundrum is an important text, but have my doubts about its renown in the wider world. Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 00:16, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think Gracehoper is right. Unfortunately I don't think any of Morris's books are that well-known and certainly Conundrum is the first one that brought her to many people's attention so I agree it would be logical to include it in the opener and thus be able to introduce the gender transition easily. PhilomenaO'M (talk) 20:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The BBC obit https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-55021555 leads with Pax Britannica and doesn't mention Conundrum until near the end, so I think her travel writing is probably the better known of the two. GeorgeSonOfJohn (talk) 21:09, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Welsh Nationalist??

Having read a number of Morris' books, and particularly her discussion of nationality in Trieste, the Meaning of Nowhere, I seriously doubt that she is a "Welsh nationalist". He was born in England and his mother was English. His father was Welsh. In Trieste she calls herself "a half-breed". Legally, or course, her nationality is British, not Welsh. 208.87.248.162 (talk) 17:41, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have you actually read any of her books? You don't have to be originally Welsh to be a Welsh nationalist. --MacRusgail (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Legally Jan Morris is a woman, so please do her the courtesy of using the feminine personal pronoun. Jan Morris has had a long-lasting relationship with Wales. She has owned property there for many years. While she might not be a nationalist in any extreme sense, I do think that she supports many of the objectives of the Welsh Nationalist movement, including greater self-determination and respect for Welsh culture. Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 00:22, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Birth name

What is her birthname? John Morris or James Morris?! Should be at least included since she published books under those names. --MacRusgail (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has ever called her John. PhilomenaO'M (talk) 20:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The pronoun again

I have reverted everything before 1972 to male, and made sure everything after is female. James Morris WAS a man; he lived and published as such. Jan Morris IS a woman; she lives and publishes as such. The three volumes of Pax Britannia are still published under BOTH names. BOTH pronouns apply.96.52.96.19 (talk) 17:43, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted pronoun usage to she throughout. Wikipedia community guidelines on this topic recommend using preferred pronouns in biographies of trans people throughout their lives. Your statement that "James Morris WAS a man" involves many assumptions about what it means to "be" a man that do not reflect a NPOV. The name under which her work was published before she transitioned is mentioned in the very first line of the article, and the explicit mention that she was published under that name is also included in the lede. I don't believe it to be unclear at all. Your statement that "BOTH pronouns apply" does not appear logically transparent to me. Gracehoper (talk) 07:43, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Gracehoper is correct. MOS:GENDERID is quite clear about this, and says that we should use the words that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. (italics in the original). This means use "she" everywhere, except where that would create a jarring juxtaposition, like, "she fathered a child...". There is no reason to avoid "she" in any part of the article, and the current excessive reuse of her surname simply to avoid saying "she" sounds awkward, and is simply not necessary. Mathglot (talk) 21:01, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Morris's children still address their father as 'Dad', so there's that. Khamba Tendal (talk) 20:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Presence of Spain

Two books are listed for 1964, The Presence of Spain and Spain. Are these actually separate books, or the same one by two titles? (Spain was apparently added later, because I just sorted it into chronological order in the list.) --David Edgar (talk) 17:24, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Contact!" Blog URL corrected

I corrected the "Contact!" Blog URL to http://janmorris-blog.tumblr.com/. The original URL took you to spam advertizing and a video about how to play 8-ball. Leah Macfadyen (talk) 15:37, 25 October 2016 (UTC)Leah Macfadyen[reply]

Picture

Is there no picture of her? It would significantly improve the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:4B00:47D0:706A:BD51:9876:A146 (talk) 22:46, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Travel Writer or Place Writer?

I see that Morris said in interview that she was not a Travel Writer, as she did not write about movement, but wrote about Places and People. An admirable distinction in my view. So would it not be better if the article respected Morris's perspective? I have just started reading her account of Venice, and I would not describe it as a Travel book. 2A00:23C5:E41B:5D01:CDE0:5F63:E1B9:7E5D (talk) 15:43, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Her view on that is quoted in the article. Sources generally refer to her as a "travel writer" so that's what the article uses. Schazjmd (talk) 16:13, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]