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Talk:Jamuna River (Bangladesh)

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Eleventh longest ?

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is the bridge on this river really the 11st longest in the world? --Kshpin 21:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Combined flow name

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On 7 June 2007 Ragib reverted a footnote indicating that "Traditionally, in British publications the result of the three rivers coming together is called the Ganges. See, e.g. "Surma River" Encyclopedia Britannica." In the area of what is now Bangladesh it may well be true that the last portion of the combined flow of the three great rivers, Ganges, Brahmaputra and Meghna-Surma river system where it flows into the Bay of Bengal is called the Meghna or the lower Meghna, as is confirmed on official maps of Bangladesh. However, in Britain and America it has traditionally been the Ganges that flowed into the Bay of Bengal. This is documented in the Encyclopedia Britannica which gives a length for the Surma-Meghna river of 900 km, not 946, because the last 46 km is Ganges. The Encyclopedia Britannica says expressly "becomes the Meghna River, which flows south past Dhaka (formerly Dacca) and enters the Ganges." This does not mean that those 46 km of very wide river are not called the lower Meghna in Bangladesh; however it does mean that traditionally in Britain it is called the Ganges. --Bejnar 16:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Britannica contradicts itself at other places, calling the combined flow as Meghna. For example, look into the article "Dakhin Shahbazpur Island", which says "Island located in the Meghna River estuary, south-central Bangladesh." (note that this is right at the point where Meghna meets Bay of Bengal). Also, the article on Chandpur says " river port, south-central Bangladesh, situated at the confluence of the Dakatia and Meghna rivers." So, please do not claim EB as your source. Thanks. --Ragib 17:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You make my point. Traditionally it was referred to in British publications as the Ganges, This is changing. I have simply documented the change. This footnote will prevent ignorant editors from changing the main text to Ganges. --Bejnar 18:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, please refer to this map from EB, which shows the combined flow as "Meghna". Hope this settles it. --Ragib 17:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is not what the Encyclopedia Britannica says now that is important. It is how the English speaking world outside of Bengal regarded the issue over the past two hundred years. Instructive is the text from The Imperial Gazetteer of India of 1885:
"THE GANGES, which enters on the western frontier, and runs diagonally across Bengal, gives to the country its peculiar character and aspect. About 220 miles from its mouth, it spreads out into numerous branches, forming a Delta. The Delta, where it borders on the sea, becomes a labyrinth of creeks and rivers, running through the dense forests of the SUNDARBANS, and exhibiting during the annual inundation the appearance of an immense sea. Higher up, the rice-fields, to the extent of thousands of square miles, are submerged. The scene presents to a European eye a panorama of singular novelty and interest—the crops covered with water; the cars of grain floating on the surface; the stupendous embankments, which restrain, without altogether preventing, the excesses of the inundations; and peasants in all quarters going about their daily work in canoes or on rafts. The navigable streams which fall into, or diverge from, the Ganges, intersect the country in every direction, and afford abundant facilities for internal communication. In many parts, boats can approach, by means of lakes, rivulets, and watercourses, to the door of almost every cottage. The lower region of the Ganges is the richest and most productive portion of Bengal, and abounds in valuable produce. The other mighty river by which Bengal is intersected is the BRARMAPUTRA, the source of whose remotest tributary is on the opposite or northern side of the same Himalayan Mountains from whose southern slopes the Ganges takes its rise. These two rivers proceed in diverging courses until they are more than zoo miles asunder; and again approaching each other, intermix their waters before they reach the ocean. The principal minor rivers in Bengal (all of which see separately) are — the GOGRA (Ghagr), SON (Soane), GANDAK, Kusi, TISTA; the HUGLI (Hoogly), formed by the junction of the Bhágarathi and Jalangi; farther to the west, the DAIODAR and RUPNARAYAN; and in the south-west, the MAHANADI, or ‘Great River’ of Orissa. In a level country like Bengal, where the soil is composed of yielding and loose materials, the courses of the rivers are continually shifting, from the wearing away of their banks, or from the water being turned off, by obstacles in its course, into a different channel. As the new channel gradually widens, the old bed of the river is left dry. The new channel into which the river flows is, of course, so much land lost, while the old bed constitutes an accession to the adjacent estates. Thus, one man’s property is diminished, while that of another is enlarged or improved; and a distinct branch of Anglo-Indian jurisprudence has grown up, the particular province of which is the definition and regulation of the alluvial tights alike of private proprietors and of the State." Available via Google Books. Note that there is no mention of the Meghna.
Also the current (2006) Encyclopedia Britannica article on the Ganges in the Micropedia skirts the issue by simple saying the combined waters flow into the Bay of Bengal. --Bejnar 18:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, how about saying that in 1885 Bengal Gazetteer, it says whatever you mentioned? However, keep in mind that the dynamics of the river flows have changed drastically after the 1897 earthquake, so depending upon the 1885 publication for any river information is not a good idea. Before 1897 earthquake, Jamuna was a minor branch of Brahmaputra, while after the earthquake, it became the main branch. The flow of Ganges was greatly affected by the changes brought by the earthquake. --Ragib 18:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • (1) The estuary is not the river. "The Meghna estuary, which covers 6000km2, is one of the world's largest: the Ganges, Brahmaputra and Meghna rivers all flow through it before discharging their waters into the Bay of Bengal."

Staff (9 Mrach 2007) "DHV wins consultancy contract for Meghna estuary development in Bangladesh" Dredging News Online

  • (2) This is not just about 1885. This is the Encyclopedia Britannica 2006 which is showing the change. Some articles use the older name, some the newer, or skirt the issue. It is like referencing the Padma River. In many cases the name Padma is not used for that particular distributary of the Ganges, it is just called the Ganges. Specifically, it should be the Padma to distinguish it.
  • (3) Given the hydrodynamics of the Ganges delta, all of this is subject to change. --Bejnar 18:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How then do you explain Britannica's nomenclature in this map, and also the 2 articles I mentioned? Clearly, Chandpur is on the bank of the combined flow near the Bay of Bengal. Why, then, Britannica states that Chandpur is situated on the bank of Meghna?
For the Hatiya Island, Britannica also says that: "Island situated in the Meghna estuary of the Gangetic delta, southeastern Bangladesh. A low-lying land mass 23 miles (37 km) long and 4–8 miles (6.5–13 km) wide, it is partially protected by embankments from sea incursions and is continually subject to cyclones and tidal waves. The island divides the Meghna River into two arms—the Shahbazpur River (west)."
Clearly, this contradicts with your notion of the name of the combined flow as used in British publications. --Ragib 18:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Also, your claim that the "British publications call it Ganges" is mistaken, as can be seen through a Book search. For example, see "The Imperial Gazetteer of India 1886", (Google book search). On page 339, while talking about the Noakhali District, WW Hunter says, "The River Meghna enters the district from Tipperah, and after flowing along the western boundary, falls into the sea by a number of mouths".

So, please do not claim "British sources say so" as not only the Imperial Gazetteer, but also many other sources call the combined flow as Meghna. (such as "India" by Sir Thomas Hungerford Holdich - 1905 , page 171, After the Surma has joined from Cachar the united stream of the three great river systems takes the name of Meghna and rushes to the sea) say that the name of the combined flow is Meghna. Thanks. --Ragib 19:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You have now successfully refuted that all British sources say Ganges, which was not the claim.

The Encyclopedia Britannica source still stands. --Bejnar 19:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as shown above for the articles "Chandpur" and "Hatiya" from the current version of Britannica, EB DOES use "Megna River" for the combined flow. So, that claim doesn't stand either. --Ragib 19:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The point is not that the Encyclopedia Britannica is consistent, the point is that English usage (for example the Encyclopedia Britannica) has called the river mouth by the name of the river with the greatest flow contribution, namely the Ganges. --Bejnar 20:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's just one example from EB. As mentioned above, other examples from EB calls the combined flow as "Meghna river". So, I don't see your point on why you assume the single example you cite IS THE example from EB while other contradictory examples can be provided. --Ragib 20:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"The island divides the Meghna River into two arms—the Shahbazpur River (west)." (Hatiya Island, from EB). --Ragib 20:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need THE example, AN example is just fine. --Bejnar 21:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An isolated example cannot be termed a common way to refer to the river. --Ragib 21:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have already demonstrated that it is not an isolated example, just a rather recent and important one. I don't see the need to get a great many others. But, for example, see "The Sundarbans is the remote forested region lying across the Bangladeshi-India border where the River Ganges flows into the Bay of Bengal." or "This Sea WiFS image shows the delta of the Ganges river as it exits Bangladesh into the Bay of Bengal."--Bejnar 23:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The first example is actually talking about a different area. The Sundarbans does fall into the Ganges river estuary, which located further west from the area where Meghna flows into the Bay of Bengal. It seems like you are trying to find support for the claim on British publications, but EB clearly don't support that. There will be many places that mix up the name of the rivers, so it will be better if you stick to reliable sources rather than random websites. --Ragib 00:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The second example is a photo caption that does show Ganges delta. But as mentioned above, that can as well be referring to the location to the west of Meghna estuary. Besides, this is not a proof that there is a common practice anywhere of calling that river anything other than "Meghna".
By now, I have shown that currently, official and unofficial reference to that river call it by "Meghna River", and also historic documents also show this has been the name used for the last 200 years. So, unless you show up with further references to this, I am going to remove the ambiguous and confusing footnote. Thanks. --Ragib 00:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever the consensus is, needs to be applied to Surma River also. → AA (talk • contribs) — 10:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jamuna vs. Brahmaputra

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There is confusion between these two pages, if indeed they are the same river. If we agree that once it enters Bangladesh it is call the Jamuna, then some explanation needs to be on the Brahmaputra page, and the Rivers of Bangladesh pages needs to be reconciled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.243.212.23 (talk) 13:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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