Talk:Jami' al-tawarikh

A fact from Jami' al-tawarikh appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 5 November 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Jami al-Tawarikh, a work of Persian literature by Rashid al-Din, was initially commissioned to document the history of the Mongols, but later expanded to cover the history of the entire world as known to Persians from the time of Adam to the 14th century?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/November.

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French version

English version of (23:07, 1 November 2007) = French version of (24 septembre 2007 à 20:03) -- for anyone in future that wants to synchronise later updates.

Other manuscripts

Hits for other manuscripts, possibly later copies, found on Google.

U.Chicago microfilm list [1]:

Topkapi Sarayi Muzesi ms. Revan 1518. Copied Baghdad 1317-18. Microfilmed, 1985.
London: British Museum ms. Add. 16 688
Vienna: Osterreichische Nationalbibliothek ms. Mxt. 326 (Flugel 957) (MMP 23 045)

Misc hits

Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris, France. Pix: [2],[3].

Other online images/webpages

U. Edinburgh [4]

Sale prices

On July 8, 1980 what is now the Khalili portion sold at Sotheby's for £850,000 - $2,017,050 to a firm of Swiss lawyers acting for an unidentified client. [5]

Khalili acquired it in 1990. He is variously claimed to have paid for it $10 million (Forbes, 2005), $12 million (Bloomberg/Herald Tribune, 2007), or an undisclosed amount, "reportedly the most expensive ever sold, although the price has never been revealed." (The Art Newspaper, 2007).

Jheald 10:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

FYI, I have (temporary) access to Blair's Compendium of Chronicles and Gray's History of the World, if anyone would like to doublecheck exact sources on anything related to this article. A copy of the Compendium was especially difficult to find. The images in the book are beautiful, I wish we could use them. I've written to Edinburgh for permission but haven't heard back yet. --El on ka 00:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Under U.S. copyright (which is different to U.K. copyright), we probably can use the images, since they are no more than faithful reproductions of original artwork which is now out of copyright, and do not reflect any particular new application of artistic skill. See Bridgeman vs Corel, and {{PD-Art}}. Jheald (talk) 12:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alas, both books were published in the UK. :/ According to the PD-art guidelines at the Commons, UK-published books are "Not okay".[6] --El on ka 00:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a difference between Commons and en-Wikipedia -- Commons is supposed to be a treasury of freely reusable material, re-usable for almost any purpose, on any servers, worldwide; but en-Wikipedia is a specific project, hosted in the U.S., with a large U.S. readership.

As a result, Commons requires that

"The rule for images claimed to be in the public domain at the Commons is that they must be in the public domain in their source country as well as in the U.S."

But, as I understand it, the test for uploading to en-Wikipedia is less stringent, and requires only that the images be allowed under U.S. law. Jheald (talk) 10:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

{{PD-art-US}} would appear to be the nearest template, with an explanatory note. Jheald (talk) 12:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translations

Any English versions availible (especially public domain ones we could copy into wikisource)?Lexington1 (talk) 04:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see no public domain translation, but in the international literatoure about islamic things I see this: Rashid al-Din, Rashiduddin Fazlullah’s Jami’t-tawarikh (Compendium of Chronicles):

A History of the Mongols, tr. W. M. Thackston, 3 vols (Harvard, 1998–9). Why is this book not mentioned in the article? --Dlugacz (talk) 07:58, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Duplication [and clarification] tags

The discussion of the inspiration for the nativity scene is discussed in the section on the Arab manuscript. Also, the borrowing of imagery. There does not appear to be a reason to repeat it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:31, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have adjusted this, but the section should perhaps be merged into the more detailed discussion further down. It talks of "the manuscript" whichout making it clear which manuscript - the Arabic one presumably? Johnbod (talk) 11:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Better. Yes. That reference is still unclear, so merger may fix that. Also, what is meant by "errors" in that paragraph, and "stock figures" -- the latter is either anachronistic or needs more explanation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"errors" is wrong I think - "adaptions" maybe. "Stock figures" just means unexplained figures standing around for no obvious reason & is maybe not right here (there is staffage). But I haven't seen the source.Johnbod (talk) 13:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, also "simple," what is meant by that? Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:02, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the most problematic sentence from the article to here for cleanup:

"Despite the apparent detail in the illustrations of the manuscript,^[which?] many ^[which?] of the images contain errors, ^{[clarification needed]} used borrowed imagery from other traditions such as Christian manuscripts, or simple ^{[clarification needed]} rearrangements of stock figures."

Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:03, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Princeton Digital Library of Islamic Manuscripts

http://library.princeton.edu/projects/islamic/

http://pudl.princeton.edu/collections/pudl0032

http://pudl.princeton.edu/collection.php?c=pudl0032&sort=title&rpp=14&language_f=Persian

[Leaf from the Jāmiʻ al-tavārīkh depicting nine Chinese emperors]

http://pudl.princeton.edu/objects/rv042v44x

http://pudl.princeton.edu/objects/13b0e65d-3d6c-46f0-b32b-b3dd15f39428

[Leaf from the Jāmiʻ al-tavārīkh depicting seven Chinese emperors]

http://pudl.princeton.edu/objects/n296x052z

http://pudl.princeton.edu/objects/68abb2c7-6e6a-44e7-890e-f50bf28e6bd7

Rajmaan (talk) 12:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 August 2021 and 6 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Payt.mm, Mvandenbout, Paisleypolk.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 September 2018 and 19 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): PeterMerly.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

al-Tawarikh with a capital "T"

Hi, the second word of the title needs to be capitalized replacing the lower case "t" with an upper case "T". Can an authorized editor/admin make the move? Thank you. 46.31.118.91 (talk) 08:36, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]