Talk:James Freedman

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. There is consensus that the current disambiguation is adequate and that the proposed is potentially misleading. Cúchullain ^t/c 14:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

James Freedman (magician) → James Freedman (pickpocket) – James Freedman was formerly a magician but is now known predominantly for his skill and knowledge as a pickpocket. His books, DVDs, credits and TV appearances plus his website pickpocket.co.uk all evidence this. Phenella (talk) 15:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It should be James Freedman (pickpocket), per WP:NCCAPS. --BDD (talk) 16:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, is he a real pickpocket, i.e. a criminal, or is he just a magician whose act consists of pickpocketing? When the article says he "picked the pockets of the Mayor of London, The Chancellor of the Exchequer and The Governor of The Bank of England," does that mean he did so in part of a show or that he actually stole from them? The distinction seems importnat. --BDD (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - he's not a real pickpocket. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Prestidigitators who specialize in this kind of effect really are known as "pickpockets", in part as a cover for the fact that they aren't necessarily pickpocketing anyone - they might use a shill or confederate to produce the illusion that they are skilled at pickpocketing. On the other hand, Freedman also calls himself a "magician" specifically [1], so the generic term seems fine. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment add the criminal biography wikiproject banner. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:15, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per IP. Even if he can be accurately called a pickpocket despite not being a criminal, I'm concerned with the ways in which that term could be misleading. Not necessarily BLP, if the subject self-identifies as a pickpocket, but the simple fact that when I see Foo Barson (pickpocket), I expect an article on a criminal, not a magician. If Freedman steadfastly referred to himself as a pickpocket rather than a magician, I could support this move; as such, (magician) is accurate and used by the subject. No need to move. --BDD (talk) 18:47, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move

Freedman is more pickpocket than magician. Page should be renamed to James Freedman (pickpocket) or James Freedman (entertainer) to reflect this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.19.245.25 (talk) 15:29, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:James Freedman/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

More advertisement than fact

Substituted at 05:11, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 29 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to James Freedman at this time, per the discussion below. For the time being, I have retained the disambiguation page at James Freedman (disambiguation) and added an "other people" hatnote to the article. Dekimasuよ! 18:43, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

James Freedman (pickpocket) → ? – There was a move request in 2013, whose result is to keep using "magician". It was nevertheless moved to "pickpocket" in 2015. I think it should be moved back to ~~"magician"~~My preference changed in light of the comments below. Dokurrat (talk) 12:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC) or use "entertainer", as not only the 2015 move was done without discussion when there was such a discussion before, but also the subject of this article does not steal for real. Dokurrat (talk) 11:46, 29 June 2018 (UTC) (modified) --Relisting. bd2412 T 22:28, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support the most recent form James Freedman (magician) to revert the move which ignored the above 28 August 2013 RM on the subject. However, if a consensus develops for James Freedman (entertainer), that would be a most appropriate qualifier. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:44, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - While its an unconventional disambiguator, it seems to fit the most WP:CRITERIA - natural, recognizable, concise, precise. Other options like "entertainer" or "magician" may WP:ASTONISH people searching for this article, whereas the current title gives them confidence that they are on the right page. -- Netoholic @ 09:41, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It should be noted that the entire lead text of Wikipedia's Pickpocketing article states, "Pickpocketing is a form of larceny that involves the stealing of money or other valuables from the person of a victim without them noticing the theft at the time. It may involve considerable dexterity and a knack for misdirection. A thief who works in this manner is known as a pickpocket." Within the text of the article, Pickpocketing#As entertainment is the second section header. Perhaps "(pickpocket entertainer)" might be more apt. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:03, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Why not move to James Freedman and delete the DAB page? There could be a hatnote for James O. Freedman and the other spellings of the surname. jamacfarlane (talk) 05:25, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I would also support this option per WP:SMALLDETAILS/WP:TWODABS to resolve this, but it might also be just kicking the can down the road. -- Netoholic @ 11:10, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support a move to either James Freedman (magician) or James Freedman (entertainer) (per this interview). 'Pickpocket' usually refers to a crime or criminal, and the other four articles in Category:Pickpocket entertainers don't have the descriptor in the title. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 23:52, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral, but Oppose (entertainer) In ictu oculi (talk) 16:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
~~Support revert to 'James Freedman (magician)'~~ per these quotes which I've picktexted from the article proving, ladies and gentlemen, that there's both nothing up my sleeve and/or Freedman identifies as a...wait for it....magician! "Formerly a Director of the Magic Circle Foundation, Freedman has been awarded the title the Magic Circle Close Up Magician of the Year twice" as well as "was awarded the Order of Merlin by the International Brotherhood of Magicians. This is described by the IBM as 'a special award to recognise members who have given twenty-five or more uninterrupted years of service to the organisation.'". Ta Da! Randy Kryn (talk) 16:12, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I have received an e-mail from the subject of this article in which he indicates that he has no problem with the qualifier "(pickpocket)", since that is the activity by which he is best known to the public. If that term cannot gain consensus, he feels that "(entertainer)" would be the next best term. He states that he is keen, however, to avoid the description "(magician)", since that term misrepresents what he does. Taking Mr. Freedman's wishes into account, I am changing my "Support" vote to Oppose, but would support the suggestion by User:jamacfarlane, seconded by User:Netoholic, to move this article's main header to James Freedman, delete the dab page and resolve any uncertainties via hatnotes. Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 10:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Maybe "(ethical pickpocket)" or "(white-hat pickpocket)"? ;-D Dokurrat (talk) 11:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose: In light of that, my preference is to retain "pickpocket". If we are moving anywhere, it should be to the base name "James Freedman". jamacfarlane (talk) 11:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
James Freedman as primary per Roman Spinner, jamacfarlane, and Netoholic. This page gets over twice the views of the only other listing, which can be handled with a hatnote. Ta da? User:Randy Kryn (talk) 11:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.