Talk:James Cudworth (colonist)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

United States: Massachusetts Mid‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Massachusetts portal This article is supported by WikiProject Massachusetts.

Untitled

I removed orphan template - this article links to four Wiki articles, including that of his notable father. Thanks, Mugginsx (talk) 17:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

His mother's ancestry has been disproved.

James Cudworth's mother Mary Machell was not the daughter of Matthew Machell, but rather the daughter of Matthew's elder brother John Machell. The evidence for this is discussed at Mary Machell's WikiTree profile at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Machell-1 (posted by User:Other Choices, 17 March 2018)

The conclusion of that discussion, and so far as I am aware the present state of knowledge, is that it is not finally proved either way. Eebahgum (talk) 13:13, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence has been discovered, presented, or exists that definitively proves Mary (Machell) Cudworth Stoughton’s parentage. As James Cudworth’s (d. 1682) Wikipedia article states, “It has also been suggested that Mary was the daughter of Mathew Machell's elder brother John, by his second wife Ursula Hynde, daughter of Francis Hynde by his wife Jane Verney. Despite extended debate, it is not absolutely certain which Machell (John or Matthew) was father of Mary, though most experts lean toward Matthew.” This is essentially where the current parentage debate concerning Mary (Machell) Cudworth Stoughton sits today in May 2018. There have been passionate arguments on internet forums and discussion groups supporting the original candidates (Matthew Machell and Mary Lewknor), and passionate arguments supporting the newly proposed candidates (John Machell and Ursula Hynde). The evidence presented has been circumstantial at best, and as such, has been interpreted in a way that supports whichever argument the poster believes is the correct set of parents to assign her. So, it is a fact that the conclusion has not been proven either way, as “smoking gun” evidence does not exist to prove who her parents were beyond a reasonable doubt. --Lionheart0317 (talk) 18:02, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With the above having already been said, newly presented evidence appears to lean toward John Machell and Ursula Hynde as being the correct parents of Mary (Machell) Cudworth Stoughton. --Lionheart0317 (talk) 14:25, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I quite agree with you, Lionheart0317, that it is not proved either way, and am happy that it should say that. But if you are going to say "there is new evidence in 2018" towards either particular conclusion, for WP purposes you need to make the statement verifiable by adding a reference please, so we can all share in it. Kind regards, Eebahgum (talk) 20:34, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone back to 'we don't know' until any new claims can be referenced. If you have up-to-date news which can be referenced, feel free to add it! Eebahgum (talk) 19:26, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Eebahgum (talk), you are more than welcome to read the evidence and accompanying analysis regarding the parentage issue of Mary (Machell) Cudworth Stoughton here: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Magna_Carta_Sandbox. The most accurate analysis of the evidence does lean toward John Machell and Ursula Hynde as the most likely parents of Mary (Machell) Cudworth Stoughton. As I have previously stated, there isn't any evidence that definitively proves her parentage. However, the accumulated evidence and the correct analysis of that evidence renders a reasonable conclusion that John Machell, and not his brother Matthew Machell, was the actual father of Mary (Machell) Cudworth Stoughton. Which is exactly how it is concluded in the parentage analysis weblink I provided, where it states: "This connection to the royal household, together with the existence of the 1584 Hackney baptism record of Mary Machell among the presumed children of John and Ursula Machell (see below), together with the fact that Ursula (Hynde) Machell at the end of her life moved to Cambridge, where Ralph Cudworth (Jr.) had just finished his studies and begun his career, indicates that John Machell, and not his brother Matthew, was the father of Mary (Machell) Cudworth." --Lionheart0317 (talk) 11:52, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Lionheart0317, for fear of this one point overflowing this article talkpage I have replied at your talkpage. There are many points in favour of both possibilities, some of which are not mentioned in any discussion I have seen, but as you say there's no smoking gun. Surely that's the best way to leave it, for the purposes of this article, until something really definitive is published? Until then, it is just adding more POV? Eebahgum (talk) 13:36, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]