Talk:James Carnegie of Finhaven

A fact from James Carnegie of Finhaven appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 29 October 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that jury nullification became a recognised part of Scots law after Carnegie of Finhaven was found not guilty in his 1728 trial of murdering Charles Lyon, 6th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/October.

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Letter as proof of outcry

I don't see how the letter 'illustrates' any sort of public outcry against the prosecution of Carnegie. It doesn't reference any kind of legal proceedings, focussing instead upon the incident itself and how sad it was. True, the tone of the letter indicates that the writer considers the killing an accident, but there's no mention of the upcoming prosecution.

However, I'll give it a couple of days before I delete the letter. It quite an interesting thing to read, and somebody might come up with a reason to keep it. Aquamonkey (talk) 15:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Plagarism

Was this just cut and pasted from http://www.electricscotland.com/history/domestic/vol3ch5a.htm i.e Domestic Annals of Scotland by Robert Chambers. I realise the book is not in copyright but an acknowledgment would be proper. --84.9.45.116 11:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can't remember exactly which web sites I got the information from, but there were several. I can remember having to do a lot of editing of what was there, and as a major case in Scottish law it is mentioned in numerous text books. Mike 14:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Date

Inconsistent - March or May? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.186.117 (talk • contribs) 22 September, 2007

There is some inconsistency in the sources, too. However, "May" seems clearly indicated by "maximum likelihood". Inter alia, Earl of Strathmore on the one hand died two days after the accident, and on the other hand died on 11 May, according to our (independently sourced) article about him. Moreover, the broadside author writes "9 May", and moreover dates the letter about the ("recent") catastrophy "16 May".

"March" seemingly only is supported by the section heading "Mar 9" in what is seemingly(?) our main source, i.e., http://www.electricscotland.com/history/domestic/vol3ch5a.htm. However, that heading only difers with one letter from "May 9"; moreover, the preceeding section is headed "Mar 22", which is inconsistent with the chronology.

Thus, I change "March" to "May". JoergenB (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Was this the former earl?

I tried to find some biographical data on James Carnegie of Finhaven. I found none (but I didn't search very widely); except an intriguing reference in the biography of "Carnegie, James, sixth earl of Southesk (1827–1905),", in the Oxford DBN, to

"...the family earldom which had been forfeited in 1715 on the attainder of James Carnegie, fifth earl, for his share in the Jacobite rising of that year".

Does anyone know if Mr. James Carnegie of Finhaven, accused of but acquitted for murder in 1728, was the same person as the James Carnegie who ceased to be an earl in 1715 as a punishment for his involvement with the jacobites? If indeed he was, then I think that this article ought to be considerably extended. Moreover, it then should be merged with James Carnegie, 5th Earl of Southesk.

In either case, the article ought to contain the dates of birth and death of Mr. Carnegie, providing they can be found. Even if he has no interest for other reasons (which he does have, if he was an earl demoted for political reasons), IMHO, we ought to provide at least one or two sentences with the barest facts about a person found interesting enough to have his own article in wp. JoergenB (talk) 21:51, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He was a grandson of David Carnegie, 2nd Earl of Northesk. See here. Opera hat (talk) 08:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another source is James Balfour Paul's Scots Peerage, volume VI, p 496-7. Opera hat (talk) 08:57, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"James" seems to have been a quite popular name in this Jacobite family - can't understand why... . @Opera hat, I suppose that you mean the James dead 1765; indeed with the addition "of Finhaven". The same addition, however, is given to his brother Charles, who should be the "Carnegie of Lour" mentioned in our article, shouldn't he?

Thus, I wonder: How do you know that this is the right James Carnegie? With this clear, we should at least be able to mention his year of death and his grandfather in the article. JoergenB (talk)

The article mentions Carnegie's sister, Lady Auchterhouse; Cracroft's Peerage, the first source I linked to, gives the grandson's sister Margaret, married to Patrick Lyon of Auchterhouse. Balfour Paul, at page 498 (it was pages 497-8, not 496-7; sorry) also gives the Lyon connection and says of the James Carnegie in question that he "killed the Earl of Strathmore in a brawl in the streets of Forfar". I don't think there's any doubt it's the same Carnegie of Finhaven.

James Carnegie of Finhaven's elder brother Charles of Finhaven died in 1712, before Lord Strathmore's death in 1728. Both sources show Patrick Carnegie of Lour was the first cousin, not the brother, of Carnegie of Finhaven (eldest son of Patrick, third son of the 2nd Earl of Northesk). Cracroft's Peerage acknowledges Balfour Paul as a source here. Opera hat (talk) 21:53, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm convinced. However, since you seem to have better accesses to sources than I, couldn't you make the appropriate changes in the article; i.e., add the death year of James, remove the (hidden) category "Year of death unknown", and change "own brother" to "cousin" in our text (but of course not in the directly cited broadside text)? JoergenB (talk) 19:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]