Talk:James A. Baker (born 1857)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Kingsif (talk · contribs) 18:58, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I'm Kingsif, and I'll be doing this review. This is an automated message that helps keep the bot updating the nominated article's talkpage working and allows me to say hi. Feel free to reach out and, if you think the review has gone well, I have some open GA nominations that you could (but are under no obligation to) look at. Kingsif (talk) 18:58, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Kingsif, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 07:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

• Not much talk activity for a few years, but there were a lot of debates about the page title. I'm not sure "James A. Baker (born 1857)" is that good, either, is it absolutely needed for disambiguation? If he signed as "James Addison Baker", isn't this the COMMONNAME that should be used?

  Long story short, Baker's commonname after his father died (when he engaged in his most significant activity) was "Captain Baker." FYI, Captain Baker is the grandfather of James A. Baker III, but the former White House Chief of Staff and Treasury Secretary is the FOURTH person so named in the family sucession. This is the source of confusion in disambiguation. Yes, the current page title is the best we can do. Please refer to the move discussion archive if you believe we should revisit this issue. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• Copyvio check looks clear
• Infobox should not list the dozen non-notable relatives that it does. I.e. 'children' should be "6, including James A Baker Jr" or similar; relatives should scrap all but James III.
  • Also, the infobox and the body text disagree on his siblings.
• Sources look good. Article largely sources to one offline biography, so AGF. Most other sources are available and look fine.
• Can the City of Houston nav box be collapsed? It's large and Baker isn't actually in it
• The two hatnotes of disambigs can probably be condensed to one - everyone called James Addison Baker is already listed at the James Baker disambig. And they all seem to be his relatives, who are linked in the article, anyway.

  I would recommend retaining both hat notes. Another James A. Baker was a lawyer with the US justice department, and the second hat note helps to to dissassociate this other person from the James Addison Baker family of lawyers. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• First two paragraphs of lead have a bunch of cites, which they don't need if all the detail is non-controversial and cited in the article body. (And all of it seems like it should be mentioned further in the article)

  I cannot overstress the degree of disambiguation problems with earlier versions of the articles about the first three generations of persons named "James Addison Baker." The articles were an absolute mess. I had to read the whole Sayen biography just to keep these persons straight in my own head. Keeping the citations in the lead will prevent unhelpful edits by persons who don't read the sources. Also, some editors make changes to leads without reading the whole article or whithout reading closely related articles. Please consider the article's past problems with disambiguation. I normally adhere to MOS on leads, but I think making an exception in this case by allowing the citations to stand would keep the article stable and accurate. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• left for Houston to pursue a law partnership in Houston - no need to repeat
  • Actually, this whole sentence (In 1872, his father left for Houston to pursue a law partnership in Houston, but leaving without the family for a time) is awkward, and I don't see the need to say he left without family, when it already says he left alone.
• From the education sentence, it currently can suggest that his mother was a teacher at a local and prep school that he attended, or that he was taught by his mother and at two schools. It's not clear, and needs adjusting.
• He completed his tenure has to be the fanciest way of saying "he quit" ever.
• In 1874 was he living in Houston or Austin? They're close to each other, but I doubt he was driving between them to go to college and volunteer with the light guard every day...
• A lot of the Houston Light Guard section is about the organization and its other affiliations. Some background on what it was is needed, but I think it gives too much before talking about Baker's involvement. Everything from "William Marsh Rice" to "red coats" could easily be cut.

  The Houston Light Guard was more of a social organization than a real military unit. The associations he needed to be chosen and the ones made after he joined laid the groundwork for his career. Perhaps I could make some selective cuts? Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• Do we know where he studied law, or got his license?

  In the US during the 19th century, the common phrase for breaking into the law profession was "reading law." And lawyers were not licensed. Essentially, lawyers were trained in the mode of tradesmen: you apprenticed to a lawyer and that was studying law. In Baker's case, I have no source telling me that he ever studied law at an institution of higher learning, nor do I have a source telling me that he had a law licence. I do have sources telling me that he went to work for his father's law firm. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

  My mistake. He was licensed in 1881, as stated in the article. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 12:56, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• Remove the "just" from just two years later
• Remove extra "the" from and the handling
• While William Marsh Rice is related to the subject, the following chunk about his life is excessive and can go - the sentence after it would just need to specify which war to flow.
  • The native New Englander had arrived in Houston in 1838 and was already the second wealthiest person in Texas by 1860. Rice rejected secession and the Confederate cause, shutting down his Houston operations during the War, while residing and doing business from Cuba and Mexico. However, he profited from the war by shipping Texas goods and supplies over the Gulf through Matamoros, Mexico, where wagon caravans provided ground transportation for Texas freight.
• Remove extra "his" from taking his over
• Presumably Tom Botts was the deceased Walter's son, but it would be nice to make it clear (both who he was and why Baker took custody of him)
• If using Elizabeth Rice's nickname "Libbie", at least establish it next to her full name first so the reader knows it's her
• Everything about defending Rice's interests should probably be its own sub-section, as should the murder case
• less than three weeks after the devastating hurricane that hit Galveston is completely irrelevant
• Patrick, however, was an attorney who pressed a lawsuit challenging the contents of his wife's will, so Patrick had only recently been a chief legal adversary to Rice. doesn't make sense
• Rice's death... why are two dates given? (On September 25, 1900 and on September 23, 1900: the lies notwithstanding, he can only have died on one day)
• Is there any reason why this image and this image are included?
• Please break Beginning in 1905, he was a director of Union National Bank, he organized Commercial National Bank, and after engineering a merger with South Texas National Bank, served as president, and later chairman of the board, of South Texas Commercial National Bank (1914–1926) into multiple sentences for readability
• Local banking section should name Baker at least once before using 'he'
• While Non-profits probably uses it once too many in the first two sentences
• Baker played a supporting role when Alice founded - Alice has never been mentioned before.

Please take a look at my various edits. I acted on most of your comments above. Thanks. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 13:39, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Overall

•  On hold Kingsif (talk) 22:23, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I have answered a few of your questions. Please let me know how you would like me to format my responses. I will make some changes to the article later today. Thanks for your comments, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• Hi @Oldsanfelipe2:, if the comments have all been addressed (I think there's quite a few lower down you might have overlooked?), I just looked over the edits and they seem good - I edited the infobox to remove duplicating his wife in it. I have to say, I was not confused at all about the various James A. Bakers, so I do think you may be overstating the issues. With the articles cleaned up and the information separated, the confusion will no longer exist, no? And with the infobox handily naming the different generations, it's ... obvious? This to the point where you didn't even need to explain to me that James III was actually the fourth: it is written in several of the articles, and is clear enough that I didn't get confused about the different numbers. Over-addressing something like this can become a style/coverage issue, and though it's not too heavy, the explanations could be toned down. Otherwise, I think it's close to passing. Kingsif (talk) 03:10, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

• I just returned home after an absense of several weeks. Soon I will take another look at the article and respond to the rest of your comments. Thanks, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 12:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

1. "In 1874 was he living in Houston or Austin? They're close to each other, but I doubt he was driving between them to go to college and volunteer with the light guard every day..."

The source does not say whether Baker lived in Austin or Houston while he attended TMI. People living in the year 2020 might perceive Austin and Houston as being close together, but people living in 1874 would not think of the two cities as being close to each other. Even by train, that was an all-day trip, and I even doubt that there was daily service between the two towns. People did not commute between Austin and Houston in 1874 (or 1900). Perhaps Sayen believed this was obvious and did not need to be stated.

That maybe drives the point home further: he had commitments in two cities, how did he manage it? Kingsif (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)::Please see edits.Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 11:24, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

2. "A lot of the Houston Light Guard section is about the organization and its other affiliations. Some background on what it was is needed, but I think it gives too much before talking about Baker's involvement. Everything from "William Marsh Rice" to "red coats" could easily be cut."

I am comfortable with the part about the Houston Light Guard after making the specific cut that you suggested. I *am* open to other selected cuts to this topic provided that it preserves the idea that Baker used it as a social network and a springboard for his career."

Yes, the old boys club part seems clear. Looks good. Kingsif (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

3. "Presumably Tom Botts was the deceased Walter's son, but it would be nice to make it clear (both who he was and why Baker took custody of him)"

Please see edit.

4. Question about image.

I inserted the image “Houston map1912.png” to provide context for Baker’s later career. This was a map published in 1912, the same year the Port of Houston opened and the same year the Rice Institute opened. Baker’s influence on transformational events for Houston corresponded with Houston becoming a significant city. If this is inappropriate, I will remove it.

Is there any source explaining all his efforts and the 1912 relevance that could be put in the caption? Otherwise 'he had an impact on the city, here's a picture' still seems tangential Kingsif (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Please see edit to caption and new paragraph.Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 11:24, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

5. Broke up long sentence about banking activities.

Please let me know if you have other questions, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 00:03, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Oldsanfelipe2: It's looking good - you mentioned you might look at it further, but if there's nothing more, I'm happy to pass it now Kingsif (talk) 05:33, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't have any other changes in mind. Let me know if you have anything else. Thanks, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 20:04, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• Seems good. Thanks for the work :) Kingsif (talk) 23:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC)