Talk:Jamea Masjid, Preston

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Need for independent sources

This article need independent reliable sources, such as articles in local newspapers. These are needed for three reasons: (1) to provide information about the mosque, (2) to provide evidence for the common name for this mosque in the English language, (3) to provide evidence of notability.

It is perfectly acceptable for sources to be in other languages for purposes (1) and (3).

If independent sources cannot be found, then we will need to have a deletion discussion, using the process in WP:AFD.--Toddy1 (talk) 16:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I found an independent source.[1]--Toddy1 (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move: majority after 25 days, no discussion in last 13 days Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:39, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jamea Masjid → Jamea Masjid (Preston) – There is a mosque of this name in Canada,[2] and another one in Aagra,[3] and one in Punjab,[4] and Manchester,[5] and Saitama.[6] There are probably other ones as well. It would therefore be clearer to have the name of the town/city the mosque is in as part of the article name. Toddy1 (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per User:Born2cycle/UNDAB If and when the other uses are covered on WP, then we can talk about whether there is a need to disambiguate. --B2C 05:35, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They are covered on en.wp, which is why we have a dab page with thirty plus similarly named mosques. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:24, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Change, The name of this article need's to be changed to Jamea Masjid, Preston since it makes people confused with other mosques of the same name.Septate (talk) 10:56, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on the grounds of Wikipedia:Unnecessary disambiguation. Point raised by User:Born2cycle has valid point with reasoning. It was the same point I was getting across and it's its good to see that there are people out there who aren't narrow minded in understanding the point of which I initially raised whereby NO other 'mosque' or 'masjid' goes with the exact same name on Wikipedia thus Unnecessary disambiguation. George Howarth (talk) 11:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - should be uncontroversial. Incidentally, User:Mohiss - I see you moved Jaame Masjid (Blackburn). Are you aware of what Jamea means in Arabic, how it is spelled in Arabic script, the potential spelling variations of jamea in English, and why in English books the "Jamea Masjid" in Delhi is the primary topic? User:Born2cycle is again reminded of WP:CRITERIA. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:53, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I moved it because the spelling of the Jaame Masjid (Blackburn) was closer to Jama Masjid and it's different spelling variations. It clearly states: 'Jama Masjid (also spelled Jame Mosque, Jami Masjid, Jameh Mosque, Jamia Masjid or Jomeh Mosque' - NOT ONCE does it say 'Jamea' in that exact spelling unlike the Blackburn location which was close to 'Jame'. As for mentioning the mosque in Delhi, you spelt it as 'Jamea'. On the OFFICIAL page, it is spelt as Jama Masjid, Delhi. Please check your sources in spelling before you start stating - it shows many flaws in what you have said. --George Howarth (talk) 11:00, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

George Howarth, thank you for creating this article, but (1) please strike your second vote. (2) According to your understanding what is the Arabic spelling of this mosque? And (3) please, what is your evidence that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of all Jamea Masjid's worldwide is the one in Preston, [i.e. it is a more notable subject in printed sources than all the others combined? ]

"jamea mosque"

"jamea masjid"

In ictu oculi (talk) 11:10, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I consulted some individuals who are fluent in the Arab dialect to ensure it wasn't coming from me, but an external source: I contacted some 'Arab' associates and told them to explain to me the meaning of Jamea as I believe it derives from Arabic. Oh and guess what, contrary to what you say, It means 'Library' - location for knowledge. IF however you said 'Juma' Masjid, that would be classed or interpreted as 'Friday mosque'. I find it 'funny' how you couldn't respond to any of what I wrote above, when you claimed the mosque in Delhi was spelt as 'Jamea' when in-fact it wasn't. When you mentioned the word but that specific, exact spelling isn't even on that page. I haven't claimed for it to be any more or any less superior than any other location in the world. As I said in my previous statement, you have started a discussed which was flawed in using the exact spelling that was used for this article. IF however the spelling was in ANY of the words mentioned in that article, I would have gladly agreed to your point and said you are right, it needs changing. However, it seems you seem to change all the ones with the different spelling to 'Jamea' when clearly there is none with that exact spelling on the different words it states in that article. --George Howarth (talk) 16:06, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(1) Thank you. (2) Thank you, but it is not I who called the Delhi Jamea Masjid by that name, since I did not write Illustrated History of Islam or the other Books on Google. (3) Thank you for your reply "I haven't claimed for it to be any more or any less superior than any other location in the world." but a subjective concept such as "superiority" isn't what defines WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: The question was (3) please, what is your evidence that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of all Jamea Masjid's worldwide is the one in Preston, [i.e. it is a more notable subject in printed sources than all the others combined? What this means is that, as you can see from clicking the Google Book links, "Jamea Masjid" refers to dozens of mosques, yes. So of the 44 hits in Google Books exactly zero refer to the one in Preston. Therefore the question is why should Wikipedia link to your article as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Jamea Masjid" when Books do not mention this mosque under this name? This is the question you are being asked to answer. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So if it wasn't you who wrote the above in regards to the way it is spelt for the Delhi mosque, whereby I cite 'the "Jamea Masjid" in Delhi' @ 22:53 on the 30th of March 2014, then who wrote it? Again, back to the initial point and in raising your initial concern in the meaning of central mosque or friday mosque, I sat in a discussion with others on this matter. It was thereafter I found that 'Jame or Jameh' in that like-for-like into Arabic would mean central (mosque). However, JameA - with the A - changes it to 'library'. I respect my elders and take note from them. I will also (presume) you are older than me and didn't want to undermine you with giving information from my own self, therefore I did a discussion and previously consulted external sources other than myself. It seems that now I have made it clear on what it ACTUALLY means, you've swayed towards wanting some 'evidence' of wanting notability. I will tell you straight up, I have no information of it to be more notable than any other subject as the last thing I'd want to do is insult those in the Islamic faith by saying this one location is more notable than the other - to them every mosque is good as any other apart from the three holy mosques where it is said they get rewarded more. SO, it is now your choice, you can continue a baseless 'argument' or discussion, however you see it - you are the one that has 'swayed' away from the initial point you raised and now moved completely away to 'notability' when it was to do with the name and its relevant meaning or can end it there and leave as be. I'll leave it to you, Sir/ Madam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohiss (talk • contribs) 22:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Jamea Masjid, Preston. We use the comma form in British articles, but I agree it's too generic a name for the article to be kept here. It's a very common title for a mosque, with the different spellings merely coming from different transliterations from the Arabic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I may initially have had an objection and the strongest objection towards it. However, I moved the page over twice to Jamea Masjid, Preston, but it was reverted by Necrothesp. Will have to let the course of this discussion end for it to be moved over 'properly' or maybe I have to rethink whether it actually needs to be moved as it could be sign that it doesn't want to be moved. --George Howarth (talk) 14:36, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- As I have said, I agree with the move, but moves should not be made until an RM discussion has been resolved. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I do not mind whether it uses the bracket form, or the comma form.--Toddy1 (talk) 23:25, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto, the comma is probably better. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have reached comma consensus (: ^walk victor falk^talk 13:47, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support and make Jamea Masjid a disambiguation page to , since we have at least two entries (Jamea Masjid (Preston) and Jamea Masjid (Blackburn)), and probably more to add. ^walk victor falk^talk 00:29, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jama Masjid, Preston, and redirect Jamea Masjid (and alternative spellings like Jame Mosque, Jami Masjid, Jameh Mosque, Jamia Masjid or Jomeh Mosque) to Jama Masjid. ^walk victor falk^talk 00:36, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am in favour of this change, However, the current Arabic meaning on the page of Jama Masjid has a different meaning to what the location at Jamea Masjid has. Please read discussion above before putting a view point across which has been discussed - here in regards to meaning. --George Howarth (talk) 00:46, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, please also look at the spelling aspect of a location. Above I see you wrote 'Jama Masjid, Preston' when this location is evidently spelled as 'Jamea'. It seems someone is adding their 'piece' without thorough reasoning. --George Howarth (talk) 00:50, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is the transliteration of Arabic, for which there is no single dominant system. My solution is too choose (semi-)arbitrarily one spelling for the dab page (i.e. the current one, Jama Masjid). As to the Mosque in Preston, I see I spelled it wrong, it should of course be Jamea Masjid if that's what the sources say. What I wanted to propose was the comma instead of the parenthesis, per wp:natural and wp:place. ^walk victor falk^talk 02:17, 3 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support in principle, but with some nitpicky conditions:

Iff the base title redirects to Jama Masjid
Jamea Masjid, Preston, Lancashire would be ideal, even if it isn't very pretty. Preston doesn't have a primary topic, and Jamea Masjid, Lancashire is out because of Jaame Masjid, Blackburn. I agree that there's no reason to deviate from the British comma convention.

Lacking evidence of another Jama Masjid in another place called Preston, I am flexible on the second point, but not on the first. --BDD (talk) 22:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging In ictu oculi: have we really found a case where I prefer a longer title than you do? --BDD (talk) 22:47, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Would seem so. But then it would never have occurred to me that Preston wasn't primary topic of Preston. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.