Talk:Jacobus de Voragine

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On 6 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Jacobus de Varagine to Jacobus de Voragine. The result of the discussion was moved.

Untitled

I realize that this article is certainly cut and pasted from some other source (which)? But the source is hardly NPOV, e.g.:

"The saints' lives are full of puerile legend"

Now, the existence of legendary material is difficult to question, but the "puerility" (sc. "fit only for children") of the legend in question is merely the author's opinion, and probably reflects 19th or early 20th century bias (and perhaps Protestant bias) against imaginative fictions. --Randomcritic

...yes, and it should certainly be noted that the versions in Butler's Lives and on the Internet have been carefully pruned of their zaniest and most grotesque details. --Wetman 06:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong name

The right name was Jacopo da Varagine, maybe Jacobus is still right in english but not "de Voragine". Varagine is the ancient name of the birth place of him, now the place is called it:Varazze

Hi, the real name is "Varagine" (ancient name of the city of Varazze), not "Voragine" (that in Italian means "abyss", "depth" and has nothing to do with Jacopo). So the title should be corrected! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.15.194.68 (talk) 22:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In Italian, there is a city in Inghilterra called Londra. In Italian, that is the name of the city. An Englishman may complain that "Londra" is the wrong name and ask for it to be changed to "London" on the Italian Wikipedia - but he would be mistaken. The correct spelling *in Italian* is Londra. - In the same way, "Voragine" is the correct spelling *in English*, not because it's better or worse but because that's simply how it's spelled. TooManyFingers (talk) 01:43, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) NW1223 <Howl at me•My hunts> 17:48, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jacobus de Varagine → Jacobus de Voragine – per WP:COMMONNAME. This ngram shows that the proposed spelling is much more common in English-language sources. The footnote in this article which seems to justify the spelling currently used – "'Varagine' in the earliest records, meaning 'from Varazze'" (Christopher Stace, tr., The Golden Legend: selections (Penguin) 1998:page x – actually refers to an edition of the Golden Legend which spells the name the proposed way. Ham II (talk) 10:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Favonian (talk) 13:38, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The closest things we have to biographies both prefer "Varagine", as can be seen from their titles:
—Richardson, Ernest Cushing (1935). Materials for a Life of Jacopo de Varagine. H. W. Wilson Company.
—Epstein, Steven A. (2016). The Talents of Jacopo da Varagine: A Genoese Mind in Medieval Europe. Cornell University Press.
It appears that Varagine is the better spelling, although both are old and Voragine is not necessarily an error. Srnec (talk) 21:29, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Those two are instances of "Jacopo de Varagine" (Italian–Latin–Latin?) and "Jacopo da Varagine" (Italian–Italian–Latin?). If they're added to the ngram they both trail along the bottom together with the current style, while there continues to be a clear preference for the proposed style. As well as the Penguin edition of the Golden Legend I've already noted, the Princeton University Press edition also uses the proposed spelling of his name – hardly unscholarly. 13:27, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

OTOH, we have In Search of Sacred Time: Jacobus de Voragine and The Golden Legend as an example of a recent (2014) dedicated book-length scholarly work which uses the proposed spelling. Colin M (talk) 16:19, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. I was surprised to find his name spelled "wrong", because I had never read it that way before. I think WP:COMMONNAME clearly outweighs the case for "Varagine", in large part because "Voragine" is the more common spelling, but also significantly because "Jacobus de Varagine" was never actually his name in life. (The case for "Jacopo De Fazio", or even for "Jacopo da Varazze", would be far stronger than that for "Jacobus de Varagine" is - but nobody seems to be proposing those.) Varagine may be slightly more correct in some sense, but unless we commit to a quixotic campaign to expunge the name "Voragine" from history, "Varagine" seems not worth the effort to promulgate. So I'd like to see the historically-most-common-in-English-sources name prevail. TooManyFingers (talk) 16:40, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:COMMONNAME. I find the ngram evidence provided very compelling. Srnec's rebuttal cites two works that use two different spellings (neither matching the current title), so I don't see it giving much support for keeping the current name, especially since there are comparable book-length treatments that do use the proposed name. Colin M (talk) 16:23, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.