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Divagations

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Is it me or there is a lot of divagations here? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jack_O%27Connell_(actor)&oldid=248478820 Nancy.Gallant (talk) 04:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The vandalism has now been removed. Thanks. PretzelsTalk! 01:09, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Birthdate

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Since the birthdate for O'Connell is in dispute (as evidenced by the slow edit war on the date) I have removed the date from the article. Once a reliable source is found for the date the information can be added back in to the article with an inline citation. Since the birthdate is obviously a contentious matter, per WP:BLP policy the information must be sourced. Jezebel'sPonyoshhh 15:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Added birthdate as 1/8/1990 as per Twitter post referenced. I checked for policy on this and it seems to be okay so long as the account is definitely real; @Eeeyoohoh is linked from [1]. Regards — Pretzels Hii! 15:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've posted a query on the reliable sources noticeboard to make sure the twitter feed can be considered a reliable source in this case. Jezebel'sPonyoshhh 15:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, that discussion is still ongoing and it appears that the existing consensus that Twitter does not qualify as a self-published source which was referenced early in the discussion may not actually exist. Any interested editors are invited to comment on the discussion Ponyo linked above, but right now the consensus, based on what past discussions have so far been found on the subject, appears to be that as a self-published source (like a blog or personal website) a twitter feed that can be clearly linked to a BLP subject can be used in the ways described in WP:V, including for basic biographical information like date and year of birth. I would think that making an exception to WP:SPS to exclude Twitter would have to go through WP:VP/P. -- Vary | (Talk) 15:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As the main argument, that there is an existing consensus against using Twitter as a source, hasn't been backed up by links to the discussions where that consensus was supposedly formed, and the majority of posters in the rsn thread seem to agree that it is as good as a website or blog for basic biographical information, I think we're safe using the birthdate that Mr. O'Connell provided for himself. -- Vary | (Talk) 13:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus that twitter is a reliable source, this account has not been verified as is possible on twitter. Off2riorob (talk) 13:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Rob - and ultimately there are two issues here. 1) Is the twitter source verified to be that of the person in question? and 2) should a self published comment by a celebrity really ever be the only source for their birthdate? As it stands there is a perfectly reliable source for the year of birth. Why is there such a push to use a contentious source for the exact date? Regarding concensus at thenoticeboard, I see a consensus of sorts that there are situations wherein twitter can be used as a source, however I certainly don't see any concensus that this is one of those situations. Jezebel'sPonyoshhh 14:32, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you see any consensus that it isn't? Why on earth shouldn't we trust this subject to give his correct month and day of birth? If that's not biographical information that can be reliably backed up by a self-published source, then what is? And I'm sorry, but the date is only 'contentious' because you've been reverting it because you think the subject's Twitter account isn't an acceptable source. The date is useful because it allows the use of an age template in the infobox, and because giving a two year age range for a currently active celebrity whose date of birth is readily available looks unprofessional and silly. Using the date of birth the subject has provided improves the article.
As Twitter themselves admit on their page on the verification system, they have very limited resources to devote to account verification, so the beta 'verified account' system is used only in cases where the subject has had past problems with impersonation. An account that is verified is definitely genuine, but it by no means follows that an account that isn't verified isn't genuine, and there are other ways to confirm that an account belongs to who it says it belongs to. The very clear consensus, in the discussion linked above and in past discussions on the matter, is that Twitter should be treated as a self-published source in cases where the account can be clearly linked to the subject. WP:V is policy and it states that self-published sources are acceptable for basic biographical information. If you think that the policy should be changed to exclude Twitter accounts that can be verifiably linked to the subject, as this one can, then that's a discussion that needs to happen on WP:VP/P. -- Vary | (Talk) 14:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a link on a TV company website, but that is no guarantee that he is the person active on the twitter account or that he takes any responsibility for anything there, if he would want to take responsibility for this twitter account as is possible officially then we could accept his date, I would also say that if this is the only source that we would have for his birth date that it should in the text be attributed that the date is what the subject told us, according to the subject he was born on so and so. I would personally not bother, as I have said, there is little or no benefit to anybody in adding it, I am sure if he get more notable then reliable sources will write biographies about him and it can be added then. Off2riorob (talk) 14:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Once again I agree with Rob. WP:BLPSPS clearly states that "such material may be used as a source only if...there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity". The twitter source is unverified and adding it to a BLP article in order to enhance the look of an infobox is not a valid argument for inclusion. Jezebel'sPonyoshhh 15:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Twitter account is not unverified. We have a source for the authenticity of the account. It is verifiably true that the account is his. What reason do you have to doubt the account's authenticity? How would he 'take responsibility' for the account beyond having it advertised on his employer's web site? And I'm not advocating using the subject's DOB to 'enhance the look of the infobox', but to enhance the information provided by the infobox. -- Vary | (Talk) 15:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the best way forward would be to see if concensus forms (either way) at the RNS discussion. At this time there is some general discussion, but I see no concensus that the twitter accunt is verified and useable in this particular instance. I'm honestly not trying to throw up barriers to having the information included, I'm simply trying to ensure that the sourcing is reliable. WP:BLP: "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references" (bolding mine). Jezebel'sPonyoshhh 16:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's unfortunate that the discussion was derailed early on by unfounded claims of prior consensus against using Twitter as a source of self-published information under any circumstances, but I haven't seen much in the way of arguments that address this source in particular as being unverifiable. I think there's a very clear link between this twitter account and the subject of the article. Why do you think the account's ownership is dubious? What methods of verification would satisfy you? -- Vary | (Talk) 17:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Twitter, by its very nature is not is not designed for or to be encouraged or supported as a reliable source on wikipedia for anything at all. Off2riorob (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think consensus is very clearly against you on that point, per several discussions on WP:RSN - the question here is not whether a Twitter account can ever be a reliable source of self-published information but whether this account's ownership can be reliably sourced. -- Vary | (Talk) 18:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Deindent. And now the date's been quietly removed again by Rob despite a clear consensus on discussions on WP:RS/N and WP:BLP/N that a Twitter account that can be reliably linked to a real individual (regardless of whether the account happens to have Twitter's 'verified' flag) is acceptable as a source of self-published information. Rob, I know you don't like Twitter but that's irrelevant - per WP:V it's acceptable in certain circumstances and this is one of them. -- Vary | (Talk) 02:14, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I think I've waited long enough for replies, so I'm reinstating the information. The account's ownership is verifiable and the material being cited is basic biographical information, so per standing consensus on the reliable source noticeboard this is an appropriate use of self-published information. -- Vary | (Talk) 00:22, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, It would of course be better to get another source as soon as one turns up. Off2riorob (talk) 00:28, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. -- Vary | (Talk) 00:30, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Into what?

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"Writer/director Shane Meadows wrote the character Pukey Nicholls into." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.161.20.11 (talk) 02:03, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnicity in lead

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I think this discussion may, just possibly, have run its course, now... Begoon talk

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As the individual who keeps trying to add O'Connell's Irish descent to the lead keeps popping up on different IPs making user talk discussion difficult, I'll leave a note here explaining to why it should not be included. Per the Manual of Style for biographies: "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." There is no case for including Irish descent in the lead in this case, and the fact that his father was Irish is already sourced and covered in the section titled "Life and career".--Jezebel'sPonyobons mots 18:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It keeps getting re-added. Citizenship/nationality at the time of becoming notable or relevant to the notablility of the person ONLY in the lead. There is no evidence that he has such. And as pointed out above by Ponyo, ethnicity should be left out of the lead. Murry1975 (talk) 07:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Has now change English/Irish to Anglo-Irish. This in itself is an ethnicity, it doesnt mean, when applied to a person dual citizenship or nationality. Page protection requested. Murry1975 (talk) 08:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And Anglo-Irish means something else entirely. The Duke of Wellington and WB Yeats were Anglo-Irish; O'Connell is not. — Jon C.ॐ 08:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've requested semi-protection at RFPP. At this point I could be considered involved and will let another admin review. Given the IPs refusal to discuss the change and their dogged determination not to follow WP:MOSBIO and consensus I'm not sure there are any other options. --Jezebel'sPonyobons mots 20:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jack Himself Said He Is Half Irish Then How Can He Be english Here Is The Link

"half-Irish, so his heritage was part of what interested me. I was wondering about his accent, because he was brought up in London, so I guess all of his mates would've influenced him mainly, but his Dad's a Dubliner."

Link-http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/tubetalk/a308839/jack-oconnell-the-runaway.html

So Please Change His Nationality To Irish-British Please.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.227.65 (talk • contribs)

Not done: - see above. Begoon talk 04:40, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dear IP editor, Jack has said he is half Irish, yes. Nationality or ethinicity? As far as we know he has never availed of Irish citizenship. As per WP:MOS guidelines enthnicity as pointed out above doesnt belong in the lead. Murry1975 (talk) 10:16, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There Is No Proof Either That He Has english/British Citizenship When Jack Said That He Is Half Irish Then It Should Be Written As Irish-British Of His Nationality.

British citizenship law is proof. Stop trolling and start looking up facts not fiction. Unless you have something progressive to say I will not reply in further. Murry1975 (talk) 09:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: - see above. This change will not be made without consensus (<--that's a blue link, please click and read...) Consensus clearly does not exist at this point. Please do not use the {{edit semi-protected}} template without consensus for the change. Thank you. Begoon talk 10:07, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

he is half irish so his nationality must be irish-british so please change it to that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.229.57 (talk • contribs) 4 January 2013

Not done: This has already been answered above. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Jack Is Half Irish So His Nationality Must Be Irish-British,Not english.
Can we semi-protect this talk page, too? Christ on a bike. — Jon C.ॐ 14:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The protected edit request has been made and replied to ad nauseum - I'm pretty sure any future requests can simply be deleted. --Jezebel'sPonyobons mots 17:36, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. RudolfRed (talk) 03:51, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Jack Himself Said That He Is 'Half Irish'So His Nationality Must be Irish-British.

On playing Eamonn in TV Series The Runaway (2011), O'Connell stated "Eamonn is half Irish, born in Ireland. I'm half-Irish, so his heritage was part of what interested me."[6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.253.174 (talk • contribs)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

jack himself said that he is half irish so his nationality must be british-irish not english

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. RudolfRed (talk) 21:24, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/film/jack-o-connell-from-skins-to-superstardom-1.1732353 Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 16:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"It hardly needs to be said that young Mr O’Connell is from an Irish background. Dad is from Kerry and – despite not visiting Ireland until he was a teenager – Jack has maintained an interest in that county’s GAA teams", not Jack is Irish. So poeple with Irish descent are Irish now, Paul Gascoigne, Steve Gerrard, Tony Blair.... the list would be endless. Stop editing while not logged in. Murry1975 (talk) 17:11, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

He Is Half Irish

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when He Himself Said That He Is Half Irish Then It Is Racist And Discriminating On Your PART murry or whatever your name is to not mention his IRISH nationality and locking this page and I WILL REPORT THIS TO WIKIPEDIA SO YOU BETTER CHANGE IT TO Irish-english — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.199.196 (talk) 07:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Geography of England

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O'Connell moved to Hounslow where he worked on a farm in Cobham. Wiki tells me Hounslow is a borough of London; are there farms in London? There are places called Cobham in Kent and Surrey; is there another one in Hounslow? I don't know what to link to. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 15:27, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

DId he live in Hounslow and commute to Cobham? And not all London is a built up jungle, this is just one example. But if you link to where this is referenced it might help. Murry1975 (talk) 15:34, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, sorry, not very familiar beyond the tourist's parts of London. The Guardian says: "When he first moved from Derby, he was living in Hounslow. ... 'Yeah, I was there for long enough, working on a farm in Cobham.'" The way it's written made me assume it's one place. Wiki says Surrey borders Hounslow, so I guess Cobham, Surrey is the correct link. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 15:56, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That is a tourist part!! It like most other city farms in London are great days out. Now let me move on before I get accused of spam. It could be Surrey. I cant find anything other than the Gaurdian article, It is the nearer one, only by half an hour. It would seem correct. If something else confirms this it would be good, I cant see it being unreasonable. Murry1975 (talk) 16:07, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

National identity

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When I rewrote the article recently I added a bit on O'Connell's national self-identity: "He does not consider himself British, instead identifying strongly with his Derby upbringing and Irish heritage". Two editors have since removed this, so I'm bringing it up here.

In an interview with The Independent, after discussing British atrocities against O'Connell's Irish family, the article says: "'I don't have to take that personally,' O'Connell says, reflecting on his own national identity, 'I'm not trying to reignite any feuds that have since been overcome, but at the same time, I don't regard myself as a Brit.'" And, "Born and brought up in Derby, his identity is rooted in that city." He told the Irish Independent, "I actually get a lot of my identity from my dad and my Irish heritage. The city I'm from, we've a really strong community from Ireland."

O'Connell is obviously a British national and may refer to himself as such in an international context (his career in the U.S.), but that doesn't mean it is part of how he views himself. He identifies with being working-class from the Midlands and with his Irish family. To me, there is no disconnect there, but maybe I'm missing something. Or maybe the statement needs to be worded differently. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 08:40, 13 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All Hallow's Wraith explained on my talk that he/she simply misread the reference, meaning the statement is not contested. So for now I'll leave it as is. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 12:31, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bet he hasn't renounced his British nationality though, has he? He renounces the identity but not the passport. Can't give up the perks. 2A0A:EF40:122D:7801:1D02:82B0:7FF1:19FB (talk) 14:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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