Talk:Jack Drummond

Cleanup

For reasons which I imagine are pretty clear, I'm marking this one for cleanup.

Foxshox 03:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Foxshox, you're not kidding!

Just heard a piece on BBC Radio 4's Start The Week on this guy, fascinating. Audio should be on the BBC web site shortly.

--NSH001 08:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I will shortly be replacing what remains of the original content of the main page. For the record, I am copying it here:

Sir Jack Drummond and his whole family, wife Lady Anne

and daughter Elizabeth were assassinated on August 4th 1952 in Lurs (Provence France).

Officially he was murdered by an old peasant Gaston Dominici, whose farm was close to the halt of the family.

But the real thesis is an espionage affair, coming from the Cold War.

The book "The Vitamin Murders: Who Killed Healthy Eating in Britain?" by James Fergusson will be published on 14 Jun 2007. He was interviewed on BBC Radio4's "The Week Ahead" on 28 May 2007. He said the murders took place close to a major French agri-chemicals factory, while Sir Jack was working in that field, developing many since-banned herbicides and insecticides, in contrast to his earlier career in diet science, especially during wartime rationing. He described him as "the Jamie Oliver of the 40's".

Note that the programme was Start The Week, not "The Week Ahead", and that Fergusson called him "the Jamie Oliver of his day."
--NSH001 20:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

A very precise article

Dear unknown author and supervisor

Many congratulations for this very documented and precise article. For instance the fact that G. Dominici was not gracied but just released by Ch. de Gaulle is real. So, officially Gaston is still ... guilty !!!

An element which could be added: the place where the Drummond are buried. It is in the classified cemetery of the well-known touristic town of Forcalquier, about 25 km East of Lurs.
As Sir Jack had no more family, and the mother of Anne, Mrs Wilbraham didn't ask for the bodies, exceptionnally three British citizens are not buried in the UK.

Would like to add an external link to my glossaryconcerning the Affair, situated on Babylon.com.

As you know, if the same entries exist in Wikipedia they can be connected directly from the alphabetical list on Bab, to the equal definitions in Wikipedia, by default the french encyclopedia.

Now some remarks.

Just in the list of french references, some are so so. As the Dominici Affair doesn't exist any more, it is rightful to use the words "Affaire Dominici" in the title and text and video only if you demonstrate that the Dominicis are out of it, for example in the book of William Reymond.

On the contrary, the book and video of Mr Deniau are swindles. In french there is an expression "the weight of words, the shock of photos and videos".
It is the case of the interview of W. Bartkowski, the driver of the commando of killers, who is now more than 80 and is a homeless.

The only available testimony is his interrogatory by two police officers, one french and one english, just two months after the events (he was in jail only one week after the facts and was sentenced to 12 years for other reasons in his heavy past).
The process of interviews of very old men such as Bartkowski and Maillet is a total dishonest mean of quest, and the title "Dominici: C'était une affaire de famille" is slanderous for the Dominici family.

The other books saying the guilt of Gaston don't say the truth but they are less important because they don't bring any evidence.

"C'est Lurs qui Dominici"
C'est l'U.R.S.S. (USSR) qui domine ici
in Le Canard Enchaîné in August 1952

"En vérité il faut le dire ici
il n'y a pas d'Affaire Dominici"

Sincerely,
affaire04@tele2.fr

---

To Master Fanx

Hummmm as there is no "Murdered British People" category in Wikipedia i'm afraid Sir Jack and whole family, after being buried in a foreign country (Forcalquier France) are definitively buried a second time.

But M. Alexander Litvinenko, a Russian subject, with the English nationality i suppose, is vey well categorized in the category: "Assassinated British people".

I propose this to be undone.

Affair04 (talk) 15:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

(very belated reply - just revisited this article) There is, as you say, no "Murdered British People" category, but I added (some time ago) Category:British murder victims, another name for the same thing. I also added Category:People murdered in France and Category:Unsolved murders in France, which I reckon covers all bases. Amitiés --NSH001 (talk) 23:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Hidden comment removed from article

I have removed the following hidden comment from the article: (may want to incorporate some of this into article)

Publisher's blurb from the Deniau/Sultan book:

Le triple meurtre de Lurs enfin élucidé ? Un demi-siècle après la condamnation à mort du patriarche de la Grand-Terre, Jean-Charles Deniau et Madeleine Sultan ont reconstitué le scénario du crime. 28 novembre 1954. Gaston Dominici est condamné à mort pour le meurtre de touristes anglais qui campaient non loin de sa ferme, la Grand-Terre. Le verdict est à peine prononcé que le patriarche accuse son fils et son petit-fils. L'affaire Dominici commence. Cinquante ans plus tard, devenue mythique, elle continue d'intriguer et de susciter la polémique. Jean-Charles Deniau et Madeleine Sultan ont repris l'enquête à son point de départ et examiné toutes les hypothèses. La dernière en date, relayée par un téléfilm à succès, innocentait même l'ensemble des membres du clan Dominici ! Jack Drummond, membre de l'Intelligence Service, aurait été assassiné par des espions venus de l'Est. Parmi eux, un certain Bartkowski... Les auteurs, qui l'ont retrouvé et interviewé, réfutent définitivement la thèse de l'espionnage. Mais, s'il ne s'agit ni de Résistance ni de services secrets, que reste-t-il ? Une affaire de famille. Jean-Charles Deniau et Madeleine Sultan l'affirment : tous les Dominici présents à la Grand-Terre la nuit du 5 août 1952 étaient, sinon coupables, du moins informés. Après avoir confié le rapport d'autopsie des victimes à un médecin légiste et à un expert en balistique, les auteurs ont pu reconstituer le scénario du crime, qui est ici présenté pour la première fois.

Biographie de l'auteur Jean-Charles Deniau, grand reporter pour la télévision, auteur et réalisateur de documentaires, dont l'un a été récompensé par un Emmy Award, est le coauteur de Des armes pour l'Iran (Gallimard, 1988) et Sur la piste du mammouth (Robert Laffont, 2000). En 2003, il a réalisé avec Madeleine Sultan L'Affaire Dominici : ses mystères, ses impasses, ses mensonges, une enquête diffusée sur les chaînes Odyssée et TMC.

A different version from the Mossé book:

Un demi-siècle après la découverte des cadavres des trois touristes anglais, sir Jack Drummond, son épouse Ann et leur fille Élisabeth, sauvagement assassinés sur une route provençale longeant la Durance, le mystère de la plus médiatique affaire criminelle des cinquante dernières années n'est pas éclairci. Certes, le vieux Gaston Dominici, propriétaire de la Grand'Terre, l'austère ferme voisine, a été gracié le 14 juillet 1960 par le général de Gaulle, après avoir été condamné à mort. Dès le prononcé de l'arrêt, le doute s'était installé au terme d'un procès qui avait laissé perplexe ceux qui l'avaient suivi. Jean Giono s'exclamait : « Il y a autant de preuves formelles qui démontrent la culpabilité de l'accusé que de preuves formelles qui démontrent son innocence. » Claude Mossé, Provençal de souche, n'a jamais douté que la peine de mort, aujourd'hui abolie, était un meurtre ; appliquée à Gaston Dominici, elle aurait été un assassinat. Connaître les mentalités des habitants de Haute-Provence l'a aidé, après de longues et sérieuses investigations, à comprendre pourquoi celui qu'on appelait le Patriarche ne pouvait être qu'innocent. Lorsque le Destin et le Hasard se rencontrent, les affaires apparemment mystérieuses ont souvent des causes très simples. Dans un premier ouvrage, publié aux Éditions du Rocher en 1993, Claude Mossé nous faisait déjà pénétrer au coeur de ce drame, donnant une explication logique à une énigme aussi tumultueuse qu'aisée à résoudre. Dix ans plus tard, alors que courent encore dans des textes et à la télévision les hypothèses les plus extravagantes, l'auteur, ayant poursuivi son enquête sans négliger aucun détail, dénonce les plus folles supputations. Reste une décision de justice inique, qui a failli conduire un innocent sous le couperet de la guillotine, et cela ne relève pas de la fiction.

L'auteur vu par l'éditeur Historien de formation, écrivain et grand reporter, Claude Mossé a parcouru le monde en quête d'événements et de personnages qui ont marqué notre époque. Comment ne se serait-il pas passionné pour cette tragédie hors du commun, qui a eu pour cadre sa Provence natale, et dont il a rencontré, dans les dernières années de sa vie, le héros innocent ?

--NSH001 21:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Colonel/Major?

Was John Drummond (Jack's father) a colonel or a major? He is identified as both.Tsuguya (talk) 02:47, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Good question. I'll take a look at it when I get round to tidying up some of the loose ends in this article, of which there are many. May be a while though, I've got a lot on my plate. --NSH001 (talk) 15:47, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

In Memoriam

The following was published in Wine and Food No. 75 (Autumn 1952), the journal of the Wine and Food Society.

Sir Jack Drummond

In Memoriam

The ghastly murder of Sir Jack Drummond, his wife and their little daughter, on 4 August, in the South of France, is one of those foul deeds which are all the more distressing for being quite inexplicable.

There is nothing for us to add to what has been written about him as the scientist who did so much for the welfare of the young and for the better health of all of us during the war years and since, but it is only right that we should take leave of a very dear friend, who was a man of taste just as much as a man of science: he certainly did improve the nutritional value of margarine by contriving to add vitamins to it, and he also wrote with authority upon the causes of rancidity in butter, but he could tell at once how fresh fresh butter was, and how much better it was for being fresher.

Jack Drummond was one of the earliest members of the Wine and Food Society, and he had been a Member of its Advisory Council since 1937, when he filled the place left vacant by the death of his friend and former master, Professor Henry D. Armstrong. He was an occasional contributor to the Society’s journal Wine and Food, his most notable contribution being that which was published in No. 47 (Autumn 1945), under the title A Memorable Meal on a Memorable Day, giving a vivid account of his mission of mercy behind German lines, just before the German surrender, to bring what help he could to the starving Dutch Population.

Jack Drummond was fundamentally and absolutely sincere: he never was dogmatic but he could be forthright; there never was any shadow of pretence about him; whatever he said he meant, and whatever he meant he stuck to until he got it done. For a man of science he had quite an exceptional gift for business, a gift which proved to be a great asset on many occasions. He also had not only a keen sense of humour but a sense of fun far greater than that of many much younger men.

The last token he gave of his unflagging interest in the Wine and Food Society was the formation of a Nottingham Branch of the Society, this year; he was its first President.

It seemed worth rescuing the obituary from oblivion.

If anybody has Wine and Food No. 47 (Autumn 1945), please do post the text of A Memorable Meal on a Memorable Day. JDAWiseman (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for that, good to see it being rescued. Hope someone can find the 1945 article. Sorry to have to revert out your recent addition to the article, but it has several problems:

• the quotation is far too long, and out of proportion to the rest of the article
• such a long quote is probably a copyright violation
• WP:NOTMEMORIAL - Wikipedia is not a memorial site
• difficulty in sourcing - I couldn't find any mention of the magazine from a brief look at the International Wine and Food Society's website. The wiki article has the name of the magazine as "Food and Wine", not Wine and Food (probably a mistake? why should they name it differently than the organisation?). Does the IWFS maintain a library of its magazines and other publications? Hmm... well, there is a US-based Food & Wine magazine, but it was founded in 1978, obviously not the same thing.
• There is little that is notable about this sort of eulogy
• Placement - logically belongs after his death.

Possibly we could list the article in the references section at the end, whence it could be cited in the body text, for example that he founded a local branch in Nottingham in 1952, maybe one or two other snippets. But any "Tributes"(?) section should be placed after his death and should include more than one obit with only a short quote from each. That is, if we were to have such a section at all.

--NSH001 (talk) 07:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Agree with most of the above, but I think it is useful to include a mention or sometimes a list of specific memorials. If for example, lavish encomiums to his life were published in Horse and Hound, Gramophone (magazine), and the British Medical Journal as was, that says something about the deceased, at the very least a testament to his range of interests and influence. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I’ve just noticed the removal. Three of your concerns can be addressed: happy to email to you a photograph of the relevant page, even to a temporary email address (my contact info). Next, though the memorial was published after his death, it was about his life. And the cover of the Autumn 1952 issue really does say “Wine and Food”. JDAWiseman (talk) 19:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

More: WP:NOTMEMORIAL says “Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements.” The inclusion of this biography was not at all prohibited by this policy. (Not friend; not relative; not acquaintance; but I’ll grant definitely ‘other’!) JDAWiseman (talk) 19:35, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, as the mention of “WP:NOTMEMORIAL” suggests that I might have an ‘interest’, my little interest should be declared. I have written (and need a publisher for) the definitive reference to old Vintage Port. From W&F #47, Summer 1952: “The Inaugural Dinner of the Nottingham Branch was held on 24 March 1952, at L’Apéritif Grill, Parliament Street, Nottingham, when Sir Jack Drummond, the President, occupied the Chair, and M. André Simon was the guest of honour.” The wines at that dinner included “Martinez 1896, presented by Major W. Alan Rook”, which is why this description of this dinner is quoted in the book’s Martinez 1896 section. And so I researched Drummond on Wikipedia; had my bibliophile friend check whether there had been an obituary; and thought that it might be of interest to Wikipedia. That’s it. JDAWiseman (talk) 19:27, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism

A Rock-Ola carbine is mentioned. The company seems to make juke boxes and not guns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:7C87:4F00:D926:98E0:72B9:DBFB (talk) 10:13, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

No, they really did manufacture this gun. See Rock-Ola#History. --NSH001 (talk) 18:42, 21 February 2021 (UTC)