Talk:Jōyō kanji/Archives/2014

Problems with the list in present form

In updating the List of kanji by stroke count to something resembling usefulness, I found a lot of problems with the list as it is now. One or two have been mentioned already, but I'm mentioning them again here.

The Han stroke counts do not always correspond to the Japanese stroke counts: 偉 (12-stroke) is listed as an 11-stroke kanji.
傑 (13-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
僧 (13-stroke) is listed as a 14-stroke kanji.
児 (7-stroke) is listed between 8- and 10-stroke kanji.
卑 (9-stroke) is listed as an 8-stroke kanji.
卸 (9-stroke) is listed as an 8-stroke kanji.
叫 (6-stroke) is listed as a 5-stroke kanji. (typo?)
喝 (11-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
塔 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji. (typo?)
塚 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji.
墓 (13-stroke) is listed as a 14-stroke kanji. (typo?)
墨 (14-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
奔 (8-stroke) is listed as a 9-stroke kanji. (typo?)
姫 (10-stroke) is listed as a 9-stroke kanji.
This is because 臣 (7-stroke) is listed as a 6-stroke kanji. (typo?)
孤 (9-stroke) is listed as an 8-stroke kanji.
廊 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji.
延 (8-stroke) is listed before 廷 (7-stroke).
慕 (14-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
承 (8-stroke) is listed as a 7-stroke kanji.
挟 (9-stroke) is listed as a 10-stroke kanji.
掌 (12-stroke) is listed as an 11-stroke kanji.
搭 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji.
整 (16-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
暑 (12-stroke) is listed between 13-stroke kanji.
暮 (14-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji. (typo?)
梅 (10-stroke) is listed as an 11-stroke kanji. However, since it's placed between the 10- and 11-stroke kanji it's not as noticeable.
棄 (13-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
模 (14-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
求 (7-stroke) is listed as a 6-stroke kanji.
泉 (9-stroke) is listed before 泊 (8-stroke)
泰 (10-stroke) is listed before 泳 (8-stroke)
流 (10-stroke) is listed before 浄 (9-stroke)
海 (9-stroke) is listed as a 10-stroke kanji.
滋 (12-stroke) is listed as a 13-stroke kanji.
漠 and 漢 (13-stroke) are listed as 14-stroke kanji.
濫 (18-stroke) is listed as a 17-stroke kanji for the same reason as 姫 above.
煮 (12-stroke) is listed as 12 strokes, but placed between 13-stroke kanji.
猶 (12-stroke) is listed between 13-stroke kanji.
番 (12-stroke) and 異 (11-stroke) seem to be reversed.
磁 (14-stroke) is listed between 15- and 16-stroke kanji.
福 (13-stroke) is listed after 14-stroke kanji.
穀 (14-stroke) is listed with 15-stroke kanji.
節 (13-stroke) is listed between 15-stroke kanji.
紫 (12-stroke) is listed between 11-stroke kanji.
緊 (15-stroke) is listed as a 14-stroke kanji for the same reason as 姫.
緯 (16-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji, just before 練, a 14-stroke kanji also listed as 15 strokes.
繁 (16-stroke) is listed as a 17-stroke kanji.
夢 (13-stroke) is listed as a 14-stroke kanji.
署 (13-stroke) is listed between 14-stroke kanji.
翼 (17-stroke) is listed with 18-stroke kanji, even though Wiktionary lists it as 17.
膜 (14-stroke) is listed between 15- and 16-stroke kanji.
華 (10-stroke) is listed between 11- and 12-stroke kanji.
著 (11-stroke) is listed between 12-stroke kanji.
衛 (16-stroke) is listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
衷 (9-stroke) is listed as a 10-stroke kanji.
被 (10-stroke) is listed as an 11-stroke kanji.
裏 (13-stroke) is listed before 12-stroke kanji.
褐 (13-stroke) is listed between 14- and 15-stroke kanji.
覧 (17-stroke) is listed before 親 (16-stroke).
誕 (15-stroke) is listed between 14-stroke kanji.
誠 (13-stroke) is listed between 14-stroke kanji.
諸, 諾, and 謁 (15-stroke) are listed between 16-stroke kanji.
謡 (16-stroke) is listed between 17-stroke kanji.
貫 (12-stroke) is listed between 11-stroke kanji.
賢 (16-stroke) is listed between 15-stroke kanji.
降 (10-stroke) is listed as a 9-stroke kanji.
隆 (11-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
雅 (13-stroke) is listed as a 12-stroke kanji.
頼 (16-stroke) is listed between 17- and 18-stroke kanji.
類 (18-stroke) is listed between 19- and 21-stroke kanji.

---

The radical 心 can (apparently) take two forms: 心 and 忄. Most of the time Wiktionary correctly counts the strokes in 忄 as 3, but it seems the list was ordered with 忄 counting as 4 strokes. Kanji affected: 忙 (6-stroke), listed as 7 strokes
快 (7-stroke), listed as 7 strokes but placed between two 8-stroke kanji
怖 (8-stroke), listed as 8 strokes but placed between two 9-stroke kanji
性 and 怪 (8-stroke), listed as 8 strokes but placed between 9- and 10-stroke kanji
恒 and 恨 (9-stroke), listed as 9 strokes but placed between 10-stroke kanji
悔 (9-stroke), listed as 10 strokes (in this case the radical is given the proper number of strokes, but there's another inconsistency accounting for the mistake)
悟 (10-stroke) may actually be correct. It's between the 10- and 11-stroke kanji, so I don't know if it's the last 10-stroke or the first 11-stroke.
悦, and 悩 (10-stroke), on the other hand, are listed as 10-stroke kanji but placed between 11-stroke kanji
悼, 情, 惜, and 惨 (11-stroke), listed as 11 strokes but placed between 12-stroke kanji
惰 (12-stroke), same situation as 悟.
愉 (12-stroke), listed as 12 strokes but placed between 13-stroke kanji
慌 (12-stroke), listed as 13 strokes but placed between the 14 and 15-stroke kanji
慎 (13-stroke), listed as 13 strokes but placed just after 慌
慢 (14-stroke), listed as 14 strokes but placed between 15-stroke kanji
慣 (15-stroke), listed as 14 strokes and placed between 15-stroke kanji
慨 (13-stroke), listed as 12 strokes and placed between 15-stroke kanji (what on earth?)
憎 (14-stroke), listed as a 15-stroke kanji.
憶 and 憾 (16-stroke) seem to be correct, somehow
懐 (16-stroke) is listed after 17-stroke kanji

---

埋 (10-stroke) and 城 (9-stroke) are reversed in order.
玉 (5-stroke) and 王 (4-stroke) are reversed in order.

---

Some kanji, such as 佐 and 信, have different readings compared against another site listing the Joyo kanji: <www.sarumayo.com/2005/joyo-kanji.html>. Which site is correct?

---

Many provided kanji readings show the okurigana as part of the reading. Ex: 嫌 Further, those that separate the kunyomi from the okurigana do so inconsistently. Some use a dot, others parentheses. At least one other placed the reading itself in parentheses rather than the okurigana.

---

Is 行 really a radical on its own? Why does the stroke-ordering for the 日 radical seem to reset at 曲? Are 日 and 曰 different radicals, given that Japanese doesn't use the latter? I realize that the left- and right-hand beta-looking radicals come from different kanji, and so you could claim that they're different radicals. That said, they're still only three strokes each. Why should they be grouped with the 8- and 7-stroke radicals, respectively?

---

Typo: "practic" should be "practice"

Well, that's all I found. There might be others that simply escaped my notice. 218.225.111.205 06:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
P.S.: If someone has a way to organize this topic that doesn't involve horizontal breaks, please feel free.

You are counting the wrong way. Most of them are correct. You have to look up again what a stroke is. --2.245.192.127 (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2014 (UTC)