Talk:Józef Zajączek

Regent

What is the right translation of Polish namiestnik? This is a person appointed by the king (or emperor) to rule the country in his behalf. Is regent a right word or maybe steward would be better. In collonies it was a vice-roy, but here this does not fit. Jasra 14:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Governor. It's a shame that such a significant figure in Polish history has this pitiable stub for an article, while numerous fairly obscure figures received enormous coverage from Polish nationalist editors. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Controversy about His Role in Polish History

How about instead of edit war simply writing about all the controversies related to this figure. Molobo's remarks contained some valuable information about the fact that his military skills were criticized, as well as that he refused to wear Polish uniform. There is no reason to remove them. Jasra 21:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. And I am looking forward to seeing this article expanded :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Ghirlandajo is free to add information how the brave hero Zajączek seeing the treachery of Polish hater Napoleon took offer of the great all loving peace giving Tsar to reastablish Polish Kingom united with its Slavic brother Russia in the name of Slavic brotherhood and love, only to be attacked by ungratefull Russophobic Poles led by Jesuit intrigue, despite the valian efforts of the great defender of Poland Novosilcov ;) Although I wonder if he will use Soviet Encyclopedia or even more objective source :). --Molobo 15:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

:D Seriously though I'd like to point out that anybody who thinks that Napoleon actually cared for Poles more than just as useful tools has nod read about the Polish Legions in Italy and how dear N. sent them to die in Haiti when they became a bit unconvinient...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to know which exact facts in the article are questioned. So far I can see that the problem is the interpretation of his service to Russian tsar (because the facts are not debatable). There are also questions how skillful he was as military commander (unfortunately my knowledge on this is limitted). Definitely he was quite a skillful politition. Whether he used his skills only to satisfy his own ambition or maybe for the benefit of his country (economic growth of Opatówek, etc.) - is debatable. Personally, I think it was his own ambition, but presenting NPoV one should give also other possible explanations for his behaviour. Jasra 21:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Prince of Poland

Several other nobles had the title, so I removed the information. --Molobo 07:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

In fact it seems like some echo of Tsarists propaganda attempts. Look who had the title earlier:

http://www.geocities.com/polishnobles/Princes.html Poniatowski h. Ciolek. In 1764 the brothers of King Stanislaw-Augustus Poniatowski (Kazimierz, Andrzej and Michal) were awarded the hereditary title of Prince of Poland by the Polish Sejm (parliament). --Molobo 07:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting if Russian Tsar tried in that way to justify his occupation of Poland. --Molobo 07:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll copy my reply from Wikipedia_talk:Polish_Wikipedians'_notice_board#J.C3.B3zef_Zaj.C4.85czek:

I think this time Ghirla is right. His edit is referenced [1], and it was me who added that particular point. Note that according to the source he was not just a 'prince' but a 'prince of Poland'. He was certainly not the first or last prince, but I find it likely he might have been the first and last 'prince of Poland'. Perhaps we can elaborate more on the title to make it not as confusing. Finding what was his title in Polish and Russian would help - it is possible the source is mistaken, or it is possible the title was indeed unique.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:37, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Józef Zajączek/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sasata (talk · contribs) 01:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I'll review this article. I'll make (what I think are) uncontroversial copyedits as I read through the article, and bring anything else up for discussion here. Comments in a day or two. Sasata (talk) 01:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll be looking forward to your comments! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, some starter comments from a quick read-through. Please ensure I didn't mess anything up with these copyedits. I think the prose needs a bit of work to meet criteria 1a. There's a very heavy reliance on a single source. Are there not other books that have been written about this individual? Anything useful from here? More comments later. Sasata (talk) 04:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• • Prose is usually the case as I am not a native English speaker, so I'll be grateful for help here. Single source - yes, but I am not aware of any other biographical book or significant article, other than perhaps the entry at Russian Biographical Dictionary at [2] (but I cannot read Russian). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• the article suffers from a bit of WP:Proseline, which I understand is perhaps difficult to avoid completely in a history article, but there's too many sentence or clauses that begin with a date. I'll try to help this out with some more copyediting
• "He was a Branicki's supporter on the scene of politics" -> "scene of politics" sounds like a reword for "political scene" but reads awkwardly
• possibly useful links: Jesuit, hagiographic, emigre, namestnik
• "Falling under Pulaski's spell" - Pulaski was a necromancer? Probably best to avoid idiomatic expressions for encyclopaedic writing.
• "Returning to France later that year he would write" why not the simpler "wrote"? Same idea with "In August 1793 he would move to Leipzig"; "In April he would join the "club"; "Zajączek would chose to remain with the French army"; "In 1808 those units would be reorganized"; ""Zajączek would be imprisoned""
• "was a vocal member of the hetman's Branicki's faction" the double possessives look suspect; reword?
• "(2nd Front Guard Regiment - 2 regiment straży przedniej)" not sure what the last half of this parenthetical statement is is it the original Polish spelling? If so it should be italicized other instances later as well)
• 4-year sejm -> shouldn't that be "four-year sejm", per MOS:NUMERAL
• "on 4 April he took part in the victorious battle of Racławice." the battle was victorious?
• "Napoleon ordered that Zajączek should be recognized as a French active brigade general." perhaps "… as an active brigade general of the French army" would be more accurate (Napolean couldn't order him to be French)
• "His division performed well at the battle of Smolensk in August where he was wounded, recuperating till October, rejoining his unit in the time to take part in the battle of Tarutino." too much going on in this sentence, please split
• "After Prince Poniatowski, commander of the V Corps, was wounded, from 1 November Zajączek commanded that formation.[22] He commanded it" repetition
• we'll need a reliable source for the "Honours and awards" section
  • All fixed but for the last part, I am mostly at a loss here. I added refs for the two mentioned in text, and found one more, but I cannot find sources for most of the awards. They are probably correct, but must be sourced to something very obscure. I'll ask the pl wiki editor who added the if they remember the source(s). PS. Actually, that was much quicker than I expected, added sources, removed unref ones that an editor on pl wiki with access to additional sources cannot verify and claims are likely an error. Are we GTG? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• is there anything useful to add from these sources? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
  • Not much; the last three are based on pl wiki anyway. The first two don't really add anything significant, and their reliability is so-so (one is a local public library page, for example). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• this source says that the name is frequently spelled Zayonchek or Zayonczek, should these be mentioned somewhere?
  • Uh, maybe it was a 19th century English mispelling. He certainly wasn't mispelled in Polish sources, modern or otherwise. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• this last source discusses some interesting details about him that are not mentioned in the article (and would help to give some impression about his personality):

• "Zayonchek was a dashing figure…Always well-dressed for battle, Zayonchek would go into battle in full dress uniform, wearing cologne and jewelry, and wielding an ornate sword."

• I am not sure how this is encyclopedic, through I guess we could cite the source directly. He certainly didn't do it all the time; not during the retreat from Russia, which was his final military chapter. So what period of his life does this even refer to? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• "While in Egypt, soldiers began to call him "General Watermelon" due to his love of the fruit."

• True, I recall this from Nadzieja, but... is this important? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• "Next he served under Desaix for many months, and then eventually fought at Canope."

• Ditto. Now, I agree there's scope of expansion here; I summarized two book chapters in one paragraph. I however don't think we are missing anything important, not for the GA level of an overview. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• "he was placed in charge of a Polish corps of the army with which he besieged Graudentz." underlined is not mentioned

• Ditto (Grudziądz). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• is it worth mentioning his encounter and later correspondence with Dr. Larrey who "saved his life by performing a difficult amputation of his leg"?

• Not unless the said Dr. Larrey is a notable individual... if it was Dr. Livingstone, I'd say sure :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• Dominique Jean Larrey Sasata (talk) 06:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

• the two images of Zajączek look nothing like each other … are they both correctly identified?
  • I have no reason to believe they aren't. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• Berzina or Berezina?
  • Typo fixed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• no mention of his 1797 book Histoire de la révolution de Pologne en 1794? (see here)
  • Hmm, that book (some sources describe it as brochure) didn't receive much press, through perhaps it could be mentioned. I'll add such a mention.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• ‪File:Filip Dombeck (Dąbek) - Wjazd Generała Zajączka do Lublina w 1826 roku.jpg‬ this looks like it could be a useful image to include (and there's room in the article …)
  • We have space, but it's a pretty crappy image of a non-notable event. Sigh, we really don't have any good images for this article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• from here: "His wife, who at the age of eighty still stirred fervent affection among young admirers, also became a historical figure of sorts; the secret of her beauty supposedly lay in the lumps of ice always kept under her bed." Could something like this be added and sourced to the Nadzieja book?
  • Could, but again I think this is not that encyclopedic. Perhaps for her article (she is a notable individual), but here... I decided not to bother with such tabloit-style trivia. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• would it be useful to include the coat of arms File:POL COA Świnka.svg?
  • Ah, that's good, a nice related image. I'll do so right away. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• worthwhile to mention that his name is inscribed here ‪Names inscribed under the Arc de Triomphe‬?
  • Probably, do you have a reliable source for that? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• "The names Chlopicki, Dabrowski, Kniaziewicz, Lazowski, Poniatowski, Sulkowski, Wolodkowicz, and Zajaczek are found on the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, a graphic illustration of how French and Polish fates were tied together in the Duchy's lifetime." Stefancic (2005), p.31. Sasata (talk) 06:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

• could you please add an English translation for the Nadzieja book?
  • Of course, I thought I did it - must have forgotten. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, added both facts we discussed: [3]. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:46, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for making the changes and additions. Please check that my recent copyedits are ok. Although there is certainly room for expansion, I think the article meets the criterion of "broad coverage" (further research on my end failed to turn up anything significant that has been omitted); the prose is approximately "clear and concise"; and the article is well-referenced with in-line citations. All three images have appropriate licenses. Now promoting... Sasata (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)