Talk:Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski

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Possible fake citation[s]

I commented out the apparent Norman Davies citation, because I am unable to find the source. The only pages which contain the text are those, which copied the text from Wikipedia.

LMB (talk) 06:20, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BLP concerns

Nihil Novi, could you please outline why you think this sentence constitutes a BLP violation. "Pogonowski's critics have described him as a politically motivated amateur historian,^[1] as a conspiratologist,^[2] and as a leading and disturbing representative of ethnonationalist historiography.^[3]". I believe these are reliable sources and that the criticism is accurately stated. Reflist below. Novickas (talk) 20:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

^ Piotr Wrobel. "The Massacre in Jedwabne, July 10, 1941: Before, During, and After". Rice University. Retrieved 2009-0530. [Marek Jan] Chodakiewicz quotes many authors, but the list is odd: next to outstanding historians, such as Piotr Wandycz or Krystyna Kersten, there appear politically motivated amateurs, such as Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
^ Monika Milewska. "The Image of Sects in the Polish Ultra-Catholic Press". CESNUR. Retrieved 2009-05-30. Another example of the conspiracy thinking is offered in an article The Provocators of the Apocalypse written by professor Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski.
^ Robert D. Cherry, Annamaria Orla-Bukowska (2007). Rethinking Poles and Jews: troubled past, brighter future. Rowman & Littlefield. It also constitutes one of the premises for historical thinking characteristic of the new and growing ethnonationalist historiography that has emerged in the post 1989 period. Its leading representatives are Marek J[an] Chodakiewicz, Piotr Gontarcyzk, Leszek Zebvrowksi, Bogdan Musial, the late Tomasz Strzembosz, and Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski. The intellectually disturbing aspect of their writing lies in the fact that these historians are considered members of the established mainstream historical schools.

1. Wróbel's passing reference is hardly a documented, reasoned critique. Historians who have praised Pogonowski's work include Norman Davies, Józef Gierowski, Aleksander Gieysztor, Anthony Polonsky, M.K. Dziewanowski and Richard Pipes.

Passing, yes, but significant. You seem to be implying that some level of praise from other historians should result in no criticism from others allowed in an article. I don't read NPOV that way.

2. Your Milewska quote, taken out of context, might be understood as indicating that Pogonowski is fundamentally mistaken in his description of some advocates of American born-again-Christian Apocalypticism; whereas the principal concrete criticism that Milewska offers is that he exaggerates its popular support.

Milewska quite clearly evaluates his work as conspiratologist.

3. Regarding the Cherry quotation, please see #1 for list of scholars who have endorsed Pogonowski's work. Nihil novi (talk) 10:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Endorsement by some doesn't mean that criticism by reliable sources is not permitted, as I read it.Novickas (talk) 14:58, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Include laudatory assessments, and I won't object to critical ones (though your critical quotations do seem to me mistaken). Nihil novi (talk) 16:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't object to summarized, referenced praise. That's what I attempted with criticism. If you think the criticism is mistaken, we could take it to BLP noticeboard. I don't see how my summaries of the quotations, now listed in full, could be seen so. Novickas (talk) 21:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure of the reliability and objectivity of the three Pogonowski-critics that you cite above? For example, of the other scholars condemned by Robert D. Cherry,

Marek Jan Chodakiewicz has, since 2003, been Research Professor of History at the Institute of World Politics in Washington, DC, where he teaches and conducts research on East Central Europe and Russia. In April 2005 he was appointed by President George W. Bush for a five-year term to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council. His academic awards have included:

Richard Hofstadter Fellowship (1989-1994), Columbia University;
The Office of the Prime Minister of the Republic of Poland Research Grant (2001);
2003 Józef Mackiewicz Literary Award;
The Earhart Foundation Fellowship Research Grant (2004).

Bogdan Musial, a German-Polish historian, similarly presents a respectable CV.

The late Tomasz Strzembosz, professor at John Paul II Catholic University of Lublin and at the Polish Academy of Sciences, likewise appears to have been a well-respected scholar.

I wonder whether it is wise to facilitate academic mud-slinging on Wikipedia—especially in reference to living and generally esteemed scholars. Nihil novi (talk) 00:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the publishers - Rice University, CESNUR, and Rowman & Littlefield - would engage in mudslinging. I hesitate to post this at BLP just now, since they have their hands full with much more serious business. Maybe at 3rd Opinion. Novickas (talk) 18:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Post at BLP noticeboard

See [1]. Novickas (talk) 15:39, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced, moved from BLP page to talk page

Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski was born on 3 September 1921 in Lwów, Poland (now Lviv, Ukraine) to Jerzy Pogonowski, Ph.D., J.D., and Wanda Żygulska-Pogonowska, a painter and sculptor. His family bears the hereditary Polish Ogończyk coat-of-arms.

He was arrested at Dukla by Ukrainians in the service of the German Gestapo, and sent successively to German concentration camps at Barwinek, Krosno, Jasło, Tarnów, Auschwitz (Oświęcim) and, in 1940, Oranienburg-Sachsenhausen.

On 19 April 1945 he was sent on the Brandenburg Death March from Sachsenhausen. Evading the gunfire of SS guards, he arrived at Schwerin and freedom on 2 May 1945.

In September 1945 Pogonowski arrived in Brussels, Belgium. He matriculated at the Catholic University: Institute Superieur de Commerce, St. Ignace, in Antwerp.

In summer 1946 he arrived in Venezuela, where he worked at the engineering office of Texas Petroleum Corporation.

In fall 1950 Pogonowski started civil engineering studies at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, Tennessee. In 1953-55 he taught descriptive geometry there.

In 1954 he graduated in civil engineering at the top of his class and was inducted into the honorary societies: Tau Beta Pi (general engineering), Phi Kappa Phi (academic society equivalent to Phi Beta Kappa), Pi Mu (mechanical engineering), and Chi Epsilon (civil engineering ). In 1955 he graduated with an M.S. degree in industrial engineering.

In 1955 he began working for Shell Oil Company in New Orleans. After a year of managerial training, he was assigned to design marine structures for drilling and production of petroleum.

In 1960 he accepted a position at Texaco Research and Development in Houston, Texas, as a project engineer.

Pogonowski has authored 50 American and foreign patents on marine structures for the petroleum industry.

Over time, Pogonowski has become critical of Jews who follow the Talmudic teaching that the Ten Commandments are not to be applied to Gentiles, as explained by the late Professor Israel Shahak of Jerusalem. Pogonowski has also taken issue with such bizarre statements as Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s that “Jews rule America, and Americans know it.” Pogonowski has criticized the treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis, as well as those Jews who hold the Talmud-inspired belief that they are destined to rule the world, with the assistance of U.S. foreign policy.

He has published an article on "The Rise and Fall of the Polish Commonwealth: A Quest for a Representative Government in Central and Eastern Europe in the 14th to 18th Centuries."

He has begun work on a Tabular History of Poland.

Unsourced and poorly sourced, moved from BLP page to talk page. Per WP:BURDEN, do not add back to the article BLP page, unless and until properly cited to WP:RS secondary sources. -- Cirt (talk) 17:38, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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[1] Piotr Wrobel. "The Massacre in Jedwabne, July 10, 1941: Before, During, and After". Rice University. Retrieved 2009-0530. [Marek Jan] Chodakiewicz quotes many authors, but the list is odd: next to outstanding historians, such as Piotr Wandycz or Krystyna Kersten, there appear politically motivated amateurs, such as Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

[2] Monika Milewska. "The Image of Sects in the Polish Ultra-Catholic Press". CESNUR. Retrieved 2009-05-30. Another example of the conspiracy thinking is offered in an article The Provocators of the Apocalypse written by professor Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski.

[3] Robert D. Cherry, Annamaria Orla-Bukowska (2007). Rethinking Poles and Jews: troubled past, brighter future. Rowman & Littlefield. It also constitutes one of the premises for historical thinking characteristic of the new and growing ethnonationalist historiography that has emerged in the post 1989 period. Its leading representatives are Marek J[an] Chodakiewicz, Piotr Gontarcyzk, Leszek Zebvrowksi, Bogdan Musial, the late Tomasz Strzembosz, and Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski. The intellectually disturbing aspect of their writing lies in the fact that these historians are considered members of the established mainstream historical schools.

[1]

[2]

[3]