Talk:Ivy Latimer

Pronunciation of her surname?

is it pronounced like "timer" or like "mortimer"? --2003:89:E922:6B00:8566:D792:236F:69C0 (talk) 15:05, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Like Mortimer Ibn Gabirol (talk) 14:12, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Claims of transgenderism and SELFSOURCE

@Hammersoft:, I noticed you reverted Sedgewren's edits claiming that Ivy Latimer is transgendered. I may have misunderstood, but I was under the impression that social media, whilst being unacceptable for claims normally, are acceptable under a wp:SELFSOURCE criteria? I have actually accepted Sedgewren's edits to the page at this time, and tidied up the reference... please feel free to revert me if I have overstepped. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 23:44, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• @BrxBrx: The concern I have is that I have not been able to verify that the Instagram ref is actually Ivy Latimer's actual instagram. Barring proof that it is, I don't trust the source. I'd far prefer a secondary source to verify this, rather than a primary source that is questionable, most especially given that this is a BLP. Strong claims require strong evidence. It's why I've been reverting. I don't see the proof. Latimer is famous enough that such a declaration should have landed on a secondary source somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it. There's been attempts to make this change for the better part of a year now, and up until today not one of the ips/new accounts has been willing to discuss. I'm not the only one who has been reverting this [1][2][3][4][5] and on and on and on. I don't think the ref should be accepted unless we have unequivocal proof the Instagram account belongs to Latimer. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:22, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah I see - I didn't realize this was a long term issue. I've struck out the edits then. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 02:20, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Curious case. If that Instagram page is not this person then it is an incredibly long-term concentrated and convincing hoax. Might I suggest using non-binary pronouns until there is confirmation either way? Oakshade (talk) 01:46, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

WP:BLP would require confirmation of the new identity; for now we have WP:RS indicating her femininity, so I am not sure what grounds you intend to invoke to override that? Elizium23 (talk) 01:51, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:PRONOUN, gender-neutral pronouns should be used when gender-specific language isn’t necessary. I just don’t see the necessity to use a binary pronoun to this person, especially when there’s controversy as to the gender of them. Oakshade (talk) 02:41, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

On what basis do you claim that gendered pronouns are not necessary here for a woman whose WP:RS use feminine pronouns? Elizium23 (talk) 02:43, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm looking at the reliable sources in the article and none of them (the ones with working links) refer to this person in feminine pronouns. And the sources in the article are years old, long before this person allegedly began gender transition. Again, I'm not seeing the necessity to use feminine pronouns nor do I see any harm of using non-binary language. Oakshade (talk) 02:49, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

That's odd, I checked the same sources and found several that name "her" an "actress". So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Which reliable sources did you find that support your concept of a "controversy" here? Elizium23 (talk) 02:50, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Can you please link the, I'm assuming old, sources that refer to this person as "her" and "actress"? I don't mean the characters which have certainly been female, but the person themself. (EDIT: And I mean outside of directory-type listing like Cofactor which are not considered reliable sources per WP:RS.) The controversy is this person's apparent self-reported Instagram page that they are gender transitioning. Oakshade (talk) 02:58, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

1. ABC ME
2. ABC.net.au
3. Amazon Prime Elizium23 (talk) 03:08, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry but if this is all we have as "confirmation" that this person is currently, or even was, female, then we have zero reliable sources supporting that claim and demonstrating the necessity that the language need be gender-specific.
The first is from a comedy-written clip of a show introducing the person as a host which in fact is more of a character (think Stephen Colbert as Stephen Colbert) which literally claims their dog said, "Do you think George was a little rude last night?"
The second makes zero indication of their gender.
The third is sourced by IMDB which is user-generated and not considered a reliable source in most cases - see WP:IMDB.
Again, we're not seeing the necessity here of having gender-specific language. Oakshade (talk) 03:28, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Well I am not sure why you are so strict about the reliability of sources when you don't have any at all to support your point. There are five Ivy Latimers on Twitter; who you gonna believe? The WP:ONUS is on YOU to prove this, RS have been provided to you, photos do not lie, Ivy is a woman, I am not sure how any sane person could deny this. Elizium23 (talk) 03:30, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm asking you to bring up reliable sources to support your contention that we need the language to be gender-specific as per WP:MOS and specifically WP:PRONOUN. So far you've shown zero. Just by your opinion that the photos from years ago look like this person is a woman is just a WP:NOR violation. I've never claimed at all this person is now a male, but other editors are giving credence to the WP:SELFSOURCE contention that this person is gender-transitioning. If you can bring up reliable sourced evidence that we shouldn't follow WP:MOS and WP:PRONOUN, then we should consider it. Otherwise there is no reason using gender specific pronouns is necessary and we can't use non-binary language. Oakshade (talk) 03:43, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Per MOS:GENDERID

Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise. Elizium23 (talk) 03:47, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Even per that MOS:GENDERID, there is no source anywhere, either by the person or a secondary source, that this person self-identified as a "woman" nor is there a necessity to be gender-specific. Like mentioned above, some editors are giving credence to the possible self-reported gender-transitioning of this person. There's just not a case here that the language needs to be gender-specific at this time per MOS. Oakshade (talk) 03:53, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

You're denying the sources right in front of you and yet you have no source anywhere, not even an unreliable source, that says this woman is anything but! All we have is your strident screaming about it! Put up or shut up! Sources or it didn't happen! Elizium23 (talk) 04:00, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Ironically you're the one screaming. You've provided zero reliable sources indicating that this person has self-identified or even has been reported as feminine and that there is a necessity per MOS, WP:PRONOUN or MOS:GENDERID we need to be gender-specific. Just screaming there are "sources right in front of you" when there was zero provided is just Proof by assertion. Again, I'm not claiming that the person is male. You're just using a straw man argument as a reason to demand sources. But it's in fact you, outside of WP:NOR violation ("photos do not lie, Ivy is a woman, I am not sure how any sane person could deny this.") that have no provided sources when asked for them that we need to be gender-specific in this article. Oakshade (talk) 04:11, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I provided three sources: you provide zero. That's me: 3, you: 0. You are not a source. Sources or it didn't happen. Elizium23 (talk) 04:13, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

If the only sources you're providing is an IMDB source, another that literally makes no mention of this person's gender and the third that claims their dog asked "Do you think George was a little rude last night?", then you've only provided three links that are not in any way reliable sources. You claimed "we have WP:RS indicating her femininity." Please provided actual reliable sources that support your claim that we need to be gender specific per MOS, WP:PRONOUN or MOS:GENDERID. Oakshade (talk) 04:19, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Me: 3 (plus 8,000 more), you: 0, You are not a source.. Elizium23 (talk) 04:20, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Are there any reliable sources in those "Ivy Latimer actress" and "Ivy Latimer gender" Google searches you can link to that support your claim "we have WP:RS indicating her femininity" and that we cannot use non-binary language in this article? Oakshade (talk) 04:27, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Are there any reliable sources that you have linked that support your claim that we must use non-binary language in this article? (Hell, I'll settle for unreliable sources at this point, I'm not picky.) Elizium23 (talk) 04:30, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

That's what I'm saying. There are zero reliable sources pointing either way. But many editors here are giving credence to the possible WP:SELFSOURCE that this person is transitioning and there is no reason we can't follow our MOS and WP:PRONOUN guidelines that there is no necessity to be gender-specific and be non-binary as a compromise until we can get actual reliable source confirmation. Not at all claiming we should use the "him/her" pronouns as I don't know, but we can use the harmless non-binary pronouns per our guidelines. Oakshade (talk) 04:37, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

ABC.net.au is the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and is Australia's national broadcaster. That does add some credibility to them. If we are looking at purely biographical information then "she" is used in this bio and so it stands to reason that the last known credible source with some level of reliability and verifiability used this pronoun to describe Ivy. Therefore, one can reason that a pronoun normally designated for females would be used currently in the article where pronouns are needed. If, in fact, Ivy has begun her change to becoming a transgender male then a reliable source will most likely pick this up in the future and the changes can be made at that time. In a lot of cases Wikipedia lags behind society because the encyclopedia is supposed to rely heavily on reliable sources and reliable media/social sources that would have the changes suggested here would take time to be published. --ARoseWolf 16:27, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@Oakshade: Your statement "The second makes zero indication of their gender." is a little confusing since the ABC source does say PLACE OF BIRTH: California, United States. Moved to Newcastle when she was six years old." (emphasis mine). Could you clarify what you mean? Nil Einne (talk) 17:22, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. Actually that ABC source from several years ago does one time use the pronoun "she". But I'm still not seeing the necessity to use gender-specific pronouns. The WP:SELFSOURCE-identified Instagram page, particularly the self-made "very trans" videos (13th story in where they say they're starting testosterone treatment) with the subject's distinct facial marks, looks very convincing that this is the subject's account. I'm not going as far as to say it is, but only suggesting we use non-binary language for now until we can get more confirmation. Oakshade (talk) 20:06, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I am going to suggest we adhere to MOS:GENDERID and use gendered pronouns for her until we can get more confirmation, such as reliable secondary sources that (1) document her self-identification or (2) document her true ownership and control of that Instagram account. This is BLP policy. Elizium23 (talk) 20:10, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

• This issue is just not going away. Yet another editor has changed the pronouns to masculine based on the SELFSOURCE-identified Instagram page. Even the official Mako Mermaids Facebook page seems to give confirmation of the Instagram account belonging to the subject by stating,

  "Ivy Latimer, Nixie in Mako Mermaids - An H2O Adventure used their social media to assume transgender. Ivy changed her name to Wyatt J Ivy and revealed she's considering hormonalization."[6]

  This still might not be evidence that this person is transitioning to some, but to avoid continued edit-warring, a non-hurting compromise to use non-binary pronouns would be ideal. Oakshade (talk) 22:18, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth, the page is now protected, which should deter drive-by editors from making unsubstantiate changes. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 23:37, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Oakshade, it is presumptive of us to assume that non-binary pronouns would not be offensive to the person towards whom we use those pronouns. Some people do consider such pronouns to be offensive. We must rely on reliable sourcing to sustain any claim of particular pronouns, most especially when it is in dispute, as it is here. Personally, I strongly suspect that Latimer is transitioning. I'd personally be comfortable with using him/he pronouns if I were talking about him, as I am now. But, Wikipedia insists we have reliable sourcing to sustain information on a BLP. We don't, as yet, have that. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:18, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

It seems if the person is transitioning to male, they would be offended by the use of feminine pronouns more so than they would with non-binary. The New York Times will never have an article entitled "Australian performer from 'Mako Mermaids - An H2O Adventure' comes out as transgender." There might never be a secondary reliable source that reports this, causing this article to be forever inaccurate if we adhere to the unbending demand we follow the traditional reliable sources model, then all we'll have is WP:SELFSOURCE. There comes a point when WP:UCS is appropriate which is why that policy exists. Oakshade (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

If. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:23, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

After taking a cursory glance, I believe there is no reasonable doubt that Latimer owns the @nixiewasaboy Instagram. In this post he shows his face alongside behind the scenes photos from Accidents Happen. Scrolling back through this older posts, you can also find comments from his Mako Mermaids costars, Gemma Forsyth [7][[8], Amy Ruffle [9], and Brooke Lee [10], all verified Instagram accounts. The account has been consistently active since 2012, a year before Mako Mermaids premiered. Faking all of this and impersonating him for 11 years would require an implausible amount of effort. I suspect it meets the criterion of a WP:BLPSELFPUB, which would make this a reliable source for his most recently self-identified pronouns. RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 04:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

@RoxySaunders:, while you have access to those instagram posts, could you please archive them for posterity? My (and presumably many other editors) acccess to Instagram is limited, and Instagram's own user-hostile architecture made it impossible for me to archive those posts. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 22:53, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

@BrxBrx, Hammersoft, and Elizium23: For the sake of other editors, here is a screenshot of @nixiewasaboy's Instagram bio as of 2021/06/16, and a screenshot of a comment by Gemma Forsyth.

Since my previous comment, his Instagram bio now uses a different surname, and does not directly claim to being the subject of this article, something I assume was done out of a desire to avoid the public eye. That undercuts my previous claim that this account is Latimer's "official" Instagram, and am I no longer certain that it should be used as a source for pronouns on the article.

The fact that Latimer is a low-profile individual creates a dilemma between respecting (what I strongly believe to be) his preferred pronouns, and not revealing potentially private information about him. RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 02:33, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

The fact that the person changed their last name, or at least indicated that they did, doesn't change the ownership of the IG account. And we don't even know if "Bernier" is meant to be identified as a surname - could be a middle or nickname. It also doesn't mean any information revealed on their IG is "private" as anyone who has an IG, including me, can view it. As a matter of fact, the account holder just started a public Gofundme fundraiser for gender affirming treatment (link at top of page as WP restricts gofundme.com links but anyone can view it). It just doesn't seem anything has changed regarding what their identifying gender is simply because they say their last name is different. Oakshade (talk) 19:41, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

@Oakshade: You're right that the subject's ownership of the Instagram can still be verified, so it still probably meets WP:BLPSELFPUB. I'm still slightly hesitant to include it in an encyclopedia article, just out of concern for his privacy. Nonetheless, in lieu of further discussion and/or consensus-building arguments to the contrary, I plan to WP:BOLDly switch the article's pronouns back to masculine pronouns/descriptors, and restore the commented-out paragraph citing his Instagram story.

As I said, it's a tricky situation. His transition has flown under the radar of reliable secondary sources, so MOS:GENDERID, which normally works in a subject's favor, is working against him. I'm slightly skeptical that he even meets WP:NACTOR, as he seems to be notable exclusively for playing Nixie. Maybe AfD is worth considering?

@Hammersoft and Elizium23: Any further thoughts?

RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 04:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

My further thoughts are that now https://www.instagram.com/nixiewasaboy/ is no longer an active account on Instagram. Ok, we all saw the post. But, now it's gone and the whole thing is very curious. Just casting about; but the number of accounts supposedly being "Ivy Latimer" on Instagram is rather astonishing, at least to me. So, which ones are fake and which ones are real? And why is the only one we're depending on for this happens to be an account that has vanished off the platform? I sure would like a reliable source to support this. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:45, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

@Hammersoft: See my comment above (diff) for some arguments as to why that particular account was almost certainly legitimate, and thus likely met the criteria for WP:ABOUTSELF. For archival purposes, here's all of the screenshots I took of the Instagram account. Now that it is no longer accessible, I suspect confirming or denying Latimer's ownership of it is a moot point, as a dead link is a very very bad source. Though it's worth noting that his GoFundMe page for top surgery (link blacklisted) still exists, and on his sister Zoë Rae's website, he's described as an actor.

I too would appreciate the appearance of RSs reporting on his transition, but given the dearth of any recent media coverage of him, it's not likely. For the time being, the article can either use his most recently self-designated pronouns based on questionable sources or revert to she/her pronouns, potentially misgendering him. Neither of these are very enticing options, but there now seems to be a stronger case to be made for the latter.

The fact that there are no sources to verify his pronouns seems to indicate of a larger lack of notability. Even under charitable readings of WP:BASIC and WP:NACTOR, I'm not sure there's enough coverage to indicate he qualifies for a standalone biography. If this article were taken to AfD, would you feel strongly about keeping or deleting it? RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 19:11, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• I don't think the article should go to AfD. Latimer had multiple significant roles, so would seem to qualify under WP:NACTOR. Certainly Latimer has fallen off the radar as an actor. There's no roles that I can see in the last 8 years, at a time when an actor should theoretically be in their prime. So, finding sources now is obviously difficult. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:25, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

No Pronouns, I Suppose?

Greetings! This discussion has been dead for the better part of a year, minus a few rumblings in the edit summary. We're all one year older, one year wiser.

My attention was drawn back here when a UK IP editor reverted pronouns to she/her and removed reference to Latimer having come out as a trans man in a then-public (now-private) social media post. Though it stretches my imagination that this change was made in perfectly good faith, I can't deny that the policy basis for including the dead citation and using he/him pronouns was very shaky. As of 2022, Latimer remains out of the public eye (though according to IMDB did appear in a small music video), and it remains impossible to verify (to any level of satisfaction) what pronouns we should use here.

Last time, I expressed concern that this article may be WP:BLP1E, and I do still think notability (seemingly propped up entirely by Latimer's role in a semi-popular TV show) is worth discussing. As a BLP, this article has a strong responsibility both to not misgender its subject, nor draw undue attention to the possible privacy concerns of extremely minor celebrities.Going forward, I think it might be best to just use gender-neutral language on the article. I've made that change now. I'm an professed disliker of the "no pronouns" style, but in an article this stubby, I don't find it overly stilted or jarring here. Sound good?RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 21:09, 18 June 2022 (UTC)