Talk:Ivo Pogorelić

Photo

That is a really, really, really BAD photo of him. It makes him look like a sick, tired, old man. I'd much prefer no photo at all than ... that ... thing. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:37, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

No objections? Good. It's gone. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:07, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully, someone can find a better one - perferably taken before 1995. Too bad Wikipedia guidelines for photos are restrictive - otherwise we could just use a CD cover.THD3 (talk) 14:17, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6olH506AnWU#t=297s http://i2.listal.com/image/4249545/600full-ivo-pogorelic.jpg http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?start=134&num=10&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&tbnid=EMCrdrDk4p3ozM:&imgrefurl=http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/42-17627246/pianist-ivo-pogorelich&docid=uTHEpRj5h5jj9M&imgurl=http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-17627246.jpg%253Fsize%253D67%2526uid%253D69562615-594f-45d0-b94d-d90dc628d14e&w=329&h=480&ei=58GhUIfSHMT80QXm0oDIDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=384&vpy=251&dur=195&hovh=271&hovw=186&tx=143&ty=148&sig=109213544981526047464&page=6&tbnh=156&tbnw=112&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:48,s:100,i:148 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datrickpuncan (talk • contribs) 03:45, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Seems the BAD photo, the one that makes him look like a 70-year old wrestler, was reinserted in 2011. I've removed it again. Please do not just reinsert it again without discussing here. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:43, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Serbian/Croatian/Yugoslav?

I'm seeking input in how to list Pogorelić's nationality. He was born in what was then Yugoslavia (but what is now Serbia) to a Croatian father and Serbian mother. Per WP:Intro ethnicity is not included in the intro, but can be noted later in the article. Does anyone know Pogo's current citizenship/residence status? I heard he was living in London. For the time being, I will list him as a Yugoslavian pianist, as that was how it was listed at the time he was born.THD3 (talk) 13:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks like I found my own answer. Pogorelić became a Croatian citizen following the breakup of Yugoslavia. Based on citizenship status, I am listing him as Croatian.THD3 (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Repertoire List

I'm new here, but I have to say I very much regret the loss of the repertoire list. I thought it was the most useful part of the article. Tillander 02:19, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know of any other pianist's articles that have repertoire lists - part of the problem is it has to be referenced. However, several have separate discography pages. It should not be too difficult to create a discography for Pogorelich as he has not made many recordings.THD3 (talk) 13:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Facts?

I have some doubts on some of the information presented here. For instance, when did he study at and graduate from Moscow Conservatory? Has the "International Piano Solo Competition" had a sequel since the opening in Pasadena? Who knows which young musicians performed at the Ivo Pogorelich Piano Festival in Germany, and where are they now? Pogorelich's name is not listed on the Unesco-website as Goodwill Ambassador. Was the Carnegie Hall concert his debut as a concert pianist? If not, when was his debut? And what about his activities in support of illnesses such as cancer and multiple sclerosis; what do they consist of? And is he still active in this field? Anyone who can supply verifiable information, or can eliminate some non-facts in this article, please do! --Hansung02 (talk) 22:18, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Marriage

«In 1976 he began studying intensively with the Georgian pianist and teacher Aliza Kezeradze, who passed on to him the tradition of the Liszt–Siloti school. They were married from 1980 until her death in 1996.»

Well, that escalated quickly. Does anyone have some background on this? It looks ridiculous as is. Oktoberstorm (talk) 14:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

According to the documentary from 1983 (simply titled "Ivo Pogorelich" and still available on the likes of Amazon), it's true, though. It contains interviews with him and his wife who tell the story of how they met.

I edited out the ridiculous and often-repeated nonsense that he stopped performing in public for 5 years after her death. It's demonstrably untrue; I've personally been to recitals during that time and they can be looked up in the concert archives of places like the Alte Oper in Frankfurt. There are also recital reviews available from those years. There was no break and then "comeback", it's all fiction. Even the Wörishofen festival ran until 1998 (two years into the alleged 5-year break). — Preceding unsigned comment added by HagSibylle (talk • contribs) 11:35, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Totally agree, I noticed a lot of recitals in 1996 (Chopin Scherzi) and his Granados from 1998 - simply superb. By the way later there were a lot of withdrawn concerts and in March 2004 German newspapers reported that he cancelled all concerts for health reasons for ongoing and the upcoming season.PaulasBunt (talk) 12:05, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Biodynamic exercises?

The article (under Personal Life) reports his practicing "biodynamic" exercises used by Russian ballet dancers since the 1920's, with a link leading nowhere useful. Difficult to find independent confirmation of this. Might it actually be the biomechanics practiced in Russian theater (Meyerhold)? Duffiwuffi (talk) 04:51, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Donohoe, Lebrecht BLP

This article [1] by Peter Donohoe documented how much negative criticism Pogorelić received throughout his career and focused on how his rise to stardom was thanks to "pop-style publicity based on his eccentricities" but also recognized his "superb qualities"

A senior editor said that the source is not noteworthy to be included; I disagree and think it should be used, at least with cautious wording

What do you guys think?Jmouritz127 (talk) 11:56, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

It is Lebrecht's blog and he exercises sole discretion as to what's published and he has no credible history of editorial policy that would justify his selection as to what or whose views to promote. Indeed, quite the opposite and recall his attack on Grigory Sokolov. And disparaging BLP content from a random pianist who may be competing with Pogorelich for engagements is not a valid source. See WP:BLP. SPECIFICO talk 13:30, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok, sure. The following BLP pages also use "Slipped Disc" in its sources: Itzhak Perlman, Elizabeth de la Porte, Friedemann Layer; should they be removed as well?Jmouritz127 (talk) 13:51, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Out of context, I have no idea why or how they use it. Feel free to remove them if they are disparaging and used to cherrypick a negative essay by a random commentator. SPECIFICO talk 15:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: As explained in the section below, I don't understand how you interpreted my phrasing as disparaging. Donohoe RECOGNIZED Pogorelich's "superb qualities" and NOTED a series of "humiliating attacks" from critics throughout Pogolevich's career and that his rise to stardom was thanks to the "pop-style marketing". In other words, Donohoe said that Pogorelich was the victim of his marketing based on eccentricities, as this marketing irked critics, resulting in series of somewhat unfair discrediting from musical experts throughout his career. It actually would bring in something positive to balance out the negative criticism.Jmouritz127 (talk) 18:38, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Inclusion of 2015 Royal Festival Hall recital in article

A senior editor argued that this event at Royal Festival Hall shouldn't be included in the article; I would argue otherwise

• This was a major performance, a return to the British concert scene after 10+ years
• I don't see how it is less important than other events in his profile (1980 competition, lauded recording at beginning of career (unsourced), Beethoven performance, 2005 performance)
  • Unlike most other performances where verification of critical opinion is now rather difficult, this has several published reviews, notably by The Guardian [2] and Bachtrack [3] and also documented by the McCormick source currently in the article [4] ("The occasion was widely (and negatively) reviewed, prompting Peter Donohoe, a pianist who won the silver medal at the 1982 Tchaikovsky Competition, to write an extended essay entitled ‘Was the Chopin jury not right to eliminate Pogorelich?’")
  • I admit that I initially included parts of the review on The Guardian that was quite biting (the author said his playing was crude to the point of assaulting the piano).
  • I would argue that it should be included but with cautious wording and not a deep-dive description so as not to make it stand out compared to other events. More neutral comments like this should be included: "technical brilliance has apparently disappeared, leaving only the crassness behind"
  • Also I would argue that instead of excluding an event, including other events might be a better approach

Jmouritz127 (talk) 14:01, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

This is a biography of an artist with a 40+ year professional career. There are hundreds of reviews and assessments by his notable peers and other qualified writers. It is well-known that he was devastated by the loss of his wife and teacher and that this affected his playing in the time around his return. It is UNDUE for you to focus on a few negative reviews at an atypical time in his performing career. There are abundant sources for you to flesh out his biography and artistic profile in a balanced manner if you choose to do so. SPECIFICO talk 15:28, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

The articles also included other points in his musical career: 1980 competition, lauded recording at beginning of career (unsourced), Beethoven performance, 2005 performance. Please explain how the 2015 recital should be excluded but others should stay? Especially the unsourced one. Also, I did not focus on this particular point. It was discussed in the McCormick source which reviewed more or less his entire career. I only expanded it with other sources. Jmouritz127 (talk) 16:29, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm also questioning your integrity: you removed the sentence about List and Kentner disapproving his playing style (saying it was already covered in the 1980 competition), yet you were the one adding Marthe Argerich's comment which was also already covered in the 1980 competition without even provding a source (I had to add it afterwards). You initially removed everything negative about him, including the carefully sourced critique by List and Kentner and the crucial McCormick source. I'm sensing an abuse of editing power from you.

I'm afraid that expanding his biography as you said would result in overwhelmingly negative criticism (and for now I won't do it). If you carefully read the Donohoe article that you chose to exclude, you'll see that he actually complimented Pogorelich's talent and disparaged series of humiliation from critics throughout his career; he also suggested the marketing based on Pogorelich's eccentricities irked critics and it was fashionable for critics to attack Pogorelich (all in all, Donohoe's disparaging remarks were for the critics and the marketing but not for Pogorelich)Jmouritz127 (talk) 16:57, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

All the more problematic that you did not insert a balanced representation of the Donohoe material in this article, if you believe it's a valid source. SPECIFICO talk 17:04, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

The key points of that article were about how the misleading marketing faciliated strings of humiliating attacks from critics; the complimenting of his abilities was only briefly mentioned. Please explain how I misrepresented the material when I phased it as Donohoe RECOGNIZED Pogorelich's talent and NOTED a series of "humiliating attacks" from critics throughout Pogolevich's career and that his rise to stardom was thanks to the "pop-style marketing" (I wonder how you interpreted this as including disparaging content) Jmouritz127 (talk) 17:10, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Mention Argerich as 1965 Chopin winner?

Sources, especially the more in-depth discussions in them, seem to favor mentioning Argerich's unique stature in the 1980 competition as a former Chopin Competition winner (who by that time had established a major international career.) See, e.g

Following the announcement of his elimination, Martha Argerich, a jury member who had won the 1965 Chopin Competition, resigned from the jury in protest at its decision. She explained her reasons in an impromptu press conference: Pogorelich was a ‘genius’ that her colleagues could not appreciate because of an entrenched conservatism’, which is why she was ashamed to be associated with them. in the Chopin Review analysis already cited in this artilcle.

and

Even though Pogorelić was met with enormous enthusiasm from the public he didn’t make it to the final round. Moreover the traditional dichotomy between audience and critics was enhanced by jury member Martha Argerich, a former winner and absolute star of classical music, who proclaimed Pogorelić a genius and quit the jury in an unprecedented act of protest. -- [https://culture.pl/en/article/the-riot-police-at-the-philharmonic-hall-and-other-scandalous-histories-of-the-chopin-piano published by the Adam Mickiewicz Institute

@Intforce: I see that you reverted my addition of this context to the mention of Argerich's resignation from the competition jury. I think this adds context to the general reader who may not be aware of Argerich's stature within the community related to this competition and the significance of her resignation. I suggest that this be restored to the text. SPECIFICO talk 17:40, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

@Intforce: I agree with your edit that her past winning seems rather irrelevant. Her resignation was because of her disagreement with other judges' conservative assessments and had nothing to do with her past winning.Jmouritz127 (talk) 22:51, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Have you read the sources? It's quite clear that the impact of her resignation and the cause celebre had to do with her unique standing both in her career and her association with the Chopin Competition as one of its most illustrious winners. Sources note that the others who either resigned or opposed Pogorelic's approach did not have the same impact -- even though they too were distinguished pianists with international careers and reputations. SPECIFICO talk 23:48, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Argerich's resignation was particularly notable not because she won the competition herself 15 years prior, but because of her artistic standing. The latter should be highlighted, not the former. intforce (talk) 16:00, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I agree. I initially put "esteemed" in front of her name, but an editor quickly reverted it, so I tried the alternative that's mentioned in the sociology source. Any wording you add to convey her stature would be appreciated. SPECIFICO talk 16:40, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Okay sure you can put "esteemed" or "renowned". I still think it is unnecessary, as Kentner and List are also widely respected but whatever.Jmouritz127 (talk) 00:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)