Talk:Ivan Rohach

This article was nominated for deletion on 3 March 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Avoid using Holocaust denial sites

I have deleted (and will redelete) a Holocaust denial site from the article. The actual link is in the page history. It uncritically includes this passage:

Andry Mokhnyk stressed that the main obstacle barring Ukrainians from knowing their history are communist myths originated in Moscow.

[1] First, that Germans executed mainly non-Ukrainians in Babyn Yar.

[2] Second, that Ukrainian nationalists helped Germans to carry out executions in Babyn Yar.

"It's a blatant lie. Babyn Yar is mainly a cite of the tragedy of Ukrainians, with over 55,000 Ukrainians being murdered there.

They are calling the massacre of tens of thousands of Jews at Babi Yar "a communist myth originating from Moscow." This is Holocaust denial, and should not be linked. Jd2718 (talk) 01:25, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is not a example of objective writing to be sure, but no denial either. The site in gereral is rather primitive to say the least, and better avoided.Galassi (talk) 01:38, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Would you mind reviewing the other links? It was a keep on AfD, might as well make it good. Jd2718 (talk) 17:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The site *Victims of Babyn Yar is that of a Ukrainian nationalist newspaper headquartered in Toronto. The article which you point to reports on a meeting that took place in Kyiv this year at Babyn Yar, and what was stated at that meeting. Just because one of the participants of the rally made statements that you do not agree with and from which you indirectly infer as Holocaust denial does not make the newspaper site a site of holocaust denial.

The article reports on the commemoration of the victims of the Babyn Yar atrocity. Indeed the article specifically writes about the memory of Ukrainian victims of the atrocity that took place there. You perception that because it was reported that one of the speakers at the said rally stated that was Babyn Yar was "a communist myth originating from Moscow" and its distortion into "this is holocaust denial" is very far fetched. Further to this your suggestion that the site should not be linked to because you infer that it may be antisemitic is unfounded. Your inferences demonstate an underlying problem with your particular perspective of history and the use or abuse of sources.

I feel that there is something definitely wrong with your logic. Bandurist (talk) 18:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By uncritically reprinting Mokhnyk's words, they de facto endorse them. Artful reference to the Jews massacred there: "non-Ukrainians"? And that most victims at Babi Yar were Jews, "a communist myth"? There is no pleasant interpretation of those remarks, or of the intentions of a publication that reprints them without comment.

You are assuming that the reporter (most probably a die-hard Ukrainian nationalist who thinks from the heart rather than from the head) was able to use his critical faculties and understand what he was reporting on and understand the implications of what he was writing. I do not assume this. I know these people.

Through your interests you have some understanding of Eastern Europe and the culture of the Ukrainians. The culturally aware Ukrainians generally say that it takes 3 generations of educated people to produce an "Inteligent" person. If you analyse Ukrainian history, you will see that only a small percentage of the people lived in the cities (between 10 and 20% before the war in both Eastern and Western Ukraine), and of them very few had a tertiary education (only 3 [Three] Ukrainians were allowed to enter University in Western Ukraine in 1938), and of them even fewer have 3 generations - a family tradition of thinking logically. If you take into account the fact that many of these "luminary" people were the first to suffer during the various occupations to begin to perceive history slightly differently.

Rather than taking a confrontational approach to what the Ukrainians write in there diaspora newspapers (which has a tendency of escalating animocity between the people) why not having discovered the article writing the editor a letter bringing his attention to the perception the article leaves on a person reading from a Jewish cultural perspective. One way or another I guarantee a positive and favorable reaction. Bandurist (talk) 19:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please avoid linking problematic pages [1]. Nothing could be simpler. Jd2718 (talk) 20:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lol, I hope it takes less than three generations to produce an intelligent person. I don't know Mokhnyk's background, but regardless it can't be used as an excuse to say such nonsense.--Riurik^(discuss) 01:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]