Talk:Ivan Rebroff

The Singer died 27.02.2008

Ivan Rebroff died yesterday. http://www.welt.de/kultur/article1736112/Saenger_Ivan_Rebroff_ist_tot.html

--87.78.163.252 (talk) 15:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Memories come flooding back. My father was all into Rebroff when I was a kid in Australia; us kids were babysat while the folks went to see Rebroff perform in Kalgoorlie, mid-70s. What a voice, plus a talent with the guitar/violin.--Mulgamutt (talk) 21:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Russian ancestry?

The article says "was a German singer of Russian ancestry" - where does the "Russian ancestry" come from? I find it neither in his official biography at http://www.ivan-rebroff.de/ nor in the German Wikipedia nor anywhere else I look. As far as I know, he was a German who decided to focus on Russian folk songs and took a Russian pseudonym, but I have never read that there was any real family connection to Russia. Gestumblindi (talk) 22:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

You are quite right. I belonged to the Troika Balalaika Ensemble between 1966 and January 1969 and then there was no mentioning of Russian ancestry or half-yiddish, as he said in recent times. Rebroff liked to use every spin that he could find, including having been a member of the Don Cossacks. In those days, Rebroff said to me he had studied violin (dropped out), acting (finished) and singing. He said then that he was Catholic. In the seventies (according to Quick magazine) he was estranged from his brother, a sports reporter and his father. He lived in a castle north of Frankfurt, where I once visited his managers (1978), who acted like they were living there also. When I knew them 40 years ago, Ivan did not speak Russian. He knew a few words, and the Russian in our group was instructed to speak Russian somewhat loudly to create the impression, Ivan understood. 00:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

From the German Wikipedia article on Rebroff: "als Sohn eines hessischen Ingenieurs und einer Russin geboren" --217.232.202.215 (talk) 08:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

This (German) news article casts doubt on his mother being a Russian, but seems to confirm that his father was of such ancestry. --217.232.202.215 (talk) 10:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The "Sohn ... einer Russin" wasn't in the German Wikipedia when I posted my question here. It is unsourced and was now changed to "einer angeblichen Russin" anyway ("an alleged Russian woman"). The FAZ article doesn't confirm Russian ancestry; it says: "Um seine Herkunft und um die Familie ranken sich Legenden. Die Mutter war angeblich Russin, der Vater ein hessischer Ingenieur mit russischen Vorfahren." ("Legends surround his ancestry and family. The mother was allegedly Russian, the father a Hessian engineer with Russian ancestors.") As it is phrased, the father's "Russian ancestors" could be seen as part of the "legends". I will anyway rephrase this part of the article introduction to "allegedly of Russian ancestry" since it isn't clear, I think. Gestumblindi (talk) 15:53, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Note, I did not add that information to the article, merely moved it from a stylistically bad paragraph up to the lead. The article was completely unreferenced, but since that statement didn't seem like it violated WP:BLP, i didn't unilaterally remove it, unlike the statement the article contained about him being born 2 months premature on a railway, or something to that effect. --Storkk (talk) 09:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

"Confirmed bachelor"?

The phrase "confirmed bachelor" is often used as a euphemism for homosexuality. I would suggest it should be omitted, because it causes confusion. If Rebroff was gay, say so; if he was not, simply say that he never married. AuntFlo (talk) 06:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. He never said he was gay. 82.234.153.213 (talk) 08:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

He could not say that until homosexuality was decriminalised in Germany. Everybody was extremely careful in that regard, because if you know/knew about a criminal offense, you were obliged to notify police, under German law. Hence nobody would ever admit or claim that about anybody.

When I was there with the musicians, between 1966 and January 1969, we all believed he was gay because he used to travel with two goodlooking young men, one of them from the ballet. He had also funded singing lessons for a beautiful young Greek who had come to Germany when he was 15 or 16. In Australia (not on the 2004 tour, before that) he is said to have picked up a young male for the tour who had been engaged. For the 2004 Australian tour, he had an assistant by the name of Claudio.

These are the events. I have not had my hand in between. Sometimes, when I meet people of whom I think 'could he be gay' I compare them to Ivan. I had not known about homosexuality before 1966.

Ivan's ambiguity meant he had an enormous charisma with people of both gender, which was part of his success. It is only in this context that it matters, the context of a bankable star, although rupturing a young couple's engagement is not so kosher.

If he had said in German that he was a confirmed bachelor, that amounts to an admission from a man of his generation where you would not talk about these things easily. He could have easily said he never found the right woman/person.

The fact that Ivan, one of the most intelligent people I have ever met in my life, never wrote his memoirs speaks volumes, too. The contradictory spin that he used to put out about himself and things from the closet might have come out. Don't you think he would have had an offer? Money grabbing and attention seeking as he was when I knew him, why did he not? 121.209.49.31 (talk) 04:52, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

When he toured South Africa in the late sixties, he visited a well-known gay bar in Cape Town known as "The Grand" (subsequently demolished). That is original research and cannot be included in the article but that rule does not extend to the discussion page. Mike Hayes (talk) 02:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

You should probably replace 'subsequently demolished' by 'later demolished'. It sounds as if the bar was demolished as a result of Ivan's attendence, does it not? 121.209.48.190 (talk) 03:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

You are mistaken. The OED defines subsequent as "Following or succeeding in time". The word you are confusing "subsequently" with is "consequently". Mike Hayes (talk) 15:57, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

In Germany, homosexuality is decriminalised since 1969... "The fact that Ivan, one of the most intelligent people I have ever met in my life, never wrote his memoirs speaks volumes, too." Evidently, there's something that Ivan didn't say, didn't want to say. But it wasn't that he was gay. If he spoke about himself like a confirmed bachelor and not like homosexual, it was to keep the ambiguity (and yes, he was very intelligent and an excellent comedian, too). It was like when he said he lived in Skopelos, which was only his holiday’s villa (he really resided in Germany near Frankfurt until he died). Claudio was an assistant and a friend, not his lover. I knew Ivan very well, although I never lived with him, so, on my own experience, he wasn't homosexual. But you believe what you want, now he’s dead and his "Burg" is empty... Merry Xmas. 82.234.153.213 (talk) 11:38, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

If he wasn't gay, why would he go to a gay bar. Don't be ridiculous. Refusing to accept something which is staring you in the face is a psychopathology called "denial" by psychologists. Mike Hayes (talk) 16:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh sorry... I agree with your definition of the word "denial". Going to a gay bar is the proof that you are gay, going to a church is the proof that you are faithful and going to a brothel is the proof that you are virile. So, I am ridiculous, I dreamt. I didn’t know Ivan personally, he never called me "mein’ Lieb’ " (yes, in German) or "mon petit ange" (yes, in French), never took me in his arms, never kissed me and so on... I dreamt. Or perhaps, another explanation : I am a boy and I didn’t know it. Thanks a lot to have shown me the truth ! Congratulations and best regards. 82.234.153.213 (talk) 19:32, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that there were two reasons he did not write his memoires. Firstly and primarily because he was very private. Secondly because his public persona was not the real person. He was not a larger than life Russian opera singer. He was a very good German singer with a great deal of charisma and significant business acumen. It would not be possible to write a legitimate autobiography without damaging the public persona. As for being homosexual, whether he was or was not would not be a reason that he did not write his memoires. Personally I haven't seen any evidence to support the slanderous allegation of being homosexual.101.98.175.68 (talk) 08:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Ivan never claimed to be homosexual. That does not mean that he was or was not gay. But the evidence that he was homosexual is very scant. Indeed effectively non-existent. Various people, usually with agendas of their own, have claimed he was homosexual, notably only after his death. There is no proof of that accusation. Rebroff was adept at publicity and creating a sense of mystery. Writing a memoir about his mundane life would have destroyed that mystery. Even if he was homosexual, that would not prevent a autobiography being written, he could have chosen to refer to this - or not.Royalcourtier (talk) 05:34, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

These were not the times to admit to being homosexual, and businesswise he played to the ladies. Maybe Holger Mischwitzky can still be asked. I know he was on Weilstein. 2001:8003:A921:6300:8D20:4D38:686B:8423 (talk) 09:13, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

There is a recent German article with a friend of Rebroff, where his homosexuality is mentioned: http://www.tz-usingen.de/lokales/hochtaunus/usinger-land/Heribert-Daume-erzaehlt-Mein-Freund-Ivan-Rebroff;art48706,2920038 "Dass Rebroff homosexuell gewesen sei, wird zwar ungern öffentlich gesagt, inzwischen aus dem näheren Umkreis aber bestätigt. Denn zu jener Zeit, da ist sich auch Daume sicher, wäre seine Karriere sofort beendet gewesen." It states that it's not often mentioned officially that Rebroff was homosexual, but it is confirmed by his friends. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.58.108.78 (talk) 16:44, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

This still isn't enough to support the claim that "Ivan Rebroff was gay." This is just some article claiming that "people near him alledgly confirmed that he was a homosexual." All this points out is that there's rumours about the subject. The source simply isn't solid enough to support such a heavy statement. It continues to talk about how some people noticed how he travelled with certain types of men and how he couldn't have come out for being gay, if he was, due to the "less liberal times". In the end, there seems to just not be any way to "proof" that he was gay, as the good man himself has long passed away. Trying to make bold claims and rumours look like they're facts can almost be considered historical revisionism. I'd suggest changing/ omitting "Rebroff was homosexual." from the page. Schutsheer des Vaderlands (talk) 08:24, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi I have tried one last time to briefly show what is actually in the Frankfurter Neue Presse article, plus I feel this now reads better. If it reverts back I give up. Demobbed Teen (talk) 14:19, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Either you don't know German, or you decided to misrepresent the text. It says in German "Dass Rebroff homosexuell gewesen sei, wird zwar ungern öffentlich gesagt, inzwischen aus dem näheren Umkreis aber bestätigt.", which translates: "The fact that Rebroff was homosexual, was indeed reluctantly said in public, but has since been confirmed by his close vicinity." So please do not whine about people restoring information, when the statement you replace it with is incorrect. Debresser (talk) 14:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Leaving aside your rudeness, the article does not provide any real evidence to support that 'fact'.

If whining is trying to reflect the nuances of an argument rather than a crass unsubstantiated tabloid claim then I am proud to be Mr Whiny of Whinyshire. Demobbed Teen (talk) 15:03, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll leave this alone now so I hopefully do not have to deal with you again, but this is a terrible, disjointed paragraph:

'Ivan Rebroff described himself as international, the "connection between East and West". He was named an honorary citizen of the Greek Sporades island of Skopelos, his domicile. Rebroff was homosexual.' Demobbed Teen (talk) 15:10, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

If you want to place that sentence somewhere else in the article, no problem. Debresser (talk) 15:18, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi

I have removed the sexuality reference purely because Wikipedia does not seem to state this for all biographies and it has no bearing on the rest of the entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Demobbed Teen (talk • contribs) 12:14, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi there,

I just noticed that despite the removal of the sexuality references in previous page versions Ivan Rebroff is still listed in categories such as "gay singers" etc. Any plans to remove him from these listings as well? Günter Schenk Wuppertal (talk) 11:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi

No I have no such plans, as I am not obsessed by his sexuality as some contributors here are. I notice that the sentence in question keeps being put back, so I give up - however I expect to see all biographies to now state the person's sexual orientation, based on articles in popular magazines and who they went to dinner with. Demobbed Teen (talk) 15:29, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi everyone,

I find it entertaining reading these comments as it's quite clear that you are heterosexual men who aren't very good at identifying gay men. Without exposing too much about myself, I will confirm that I am a homosexual and I knew him personally. He was gay. There is no need to make a huge deal about the fact that he was attracted to men rather than women since it does not subtract from his talent and overall personality. I'm not sure what proof you want from anyone who knew him, would you like me to describe him naked to you? In all seriousness, please leave this poor man alone and just be nonchalant about his sexuality. He was gay, so what? Apologies for any errors in my paragraph as I am not a native English speaker. Andreas0066 (talk) 17:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you - read my original edit. I'm done here, but if you can improve this page, please do so! Demobbed Teen (talk) 07:55, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

At the "French Opera"??

• • He performed over 6,000 concerts in his career, including a two-year seven-day-a-week stint at the French opera, singing, among other greats, Fiddler on the Roof.

What does that even mean??? WHAT "French Opera"?? Fiddler on the Roof at the Paris Opéra? What? 208.87.248.162 (talk) 19:27, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

You're right, it was first at the Théâtre Marigny, in November 1969 ([1]). 82.234.153.213 (talk) 06:24, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Ivan vs. Iwan

I have a record called "Na Sdarowje - Iwan Rebroff singt Weisen von Wodka und Wein". I am curious if he changed the spelling of his stage name somewhere along the way? On the discussion page of the German article on Ivan Rebroff, (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Ivan_Rebroff) one contributor who claims to have known Mr. Rebroff also spells his name with "w" - i.e. "Iwan".

Rebroff had his artist's name registered in the German language environment, where it is Iwan. In English it is Ivan. When his career took off internationally, it was changed to Ivan. Russian language names are transliterated or transcribed differently for use in different languages, and invented names, too. To use a current example, Putin would be Poutine in France. 2001:8003:A921:6300:8D20:4D38:686B:8423 (talk) 09:09, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

On an unrelated topic: None of the two external links listed on the main page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Rebroff) work anymore. 68.146.80.191 (talk) 16:09, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello.

Well, your record was certainly published in Germany, according to the German title. In German language, the letter "v" is pronounced "f" and the sound "v" is written "w". So, German people sometimes (often ?) write Iwan, like the pronounciation is. In France, you sometimes find Yvan (Look at the record Die Krönung einer grossen Karriere, published in Germany : Ivan Rebroff [2], published in France : Yvan Rebroff [3]). I think remember that, in this French interwiew (1974), Ivan explained his name spelled I-v-a-n R-e-b-r-o-f-f, insisting on "v" in Ivan and 2 "f" (and not a "v") at the end of Rebroff. I suppose that when he chose his stage name in his first cast, Ivan Rebroff seemed him more "stranger" (more "Russian" ?) than Iwan Rebrov as it might be written in German language... Himself, he always wrote his name Ivan and didn't change it.

The two external links can be found here : [4] [5].

Best regards. 82.234.153.213 (talk) 17:34, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Additional Information: Yes, the record was published in Germany. The cover is almost identical to the one shown at [6] except that his name is spelled "Iwan" and the song titles on the bottom left are on a black background. Interestingly, the track list in the above link shows several songs written by "Iwan Rebroff" so there are inconsistencies in the spelling of his name even on a single album. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.146.80.191 (talk) 20:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes, whimsical. Perhaps your record was a first publication which was corrected in the following ones, but not wholly ? 82.234.153.213 (talk) 06:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Citizen of Greece ?

Hi there, this article currently states that Mr. Rebroff became a citizen of greece. In my opinion this claim is somewhat problematic, because neither the corresponding German wikipedia article nor Rebroff's official biography confirm this -- the only information according to these sources is, that he was awarded the *honorary citizenship* of Skopelos, the greek island where he had a domicile. Günter Schenk Wuppertal (talk) 11:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Life and career: the "Rebroff still performed 12 shows in 14 days..." claim

Just found some more information about the Australian tour which Rebroff did in 2004. The "Sydney Morning Herald" website has an article (https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/music/a-slave-of-the-audience-finds-freedom-within-20040303-gdigos.html) that provides specific information such as the number of concerts (13) and the duration of this tour (3 weeks). Based on this information I'm going to update the WP article accordingly. Günter Schenk Wuppertal (talk) 10:51, 1 June 2023 (UTC)