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Re use of a.k.a. for Nou and Oumi. I don't know about the view from Ehime but please note that these spellings are common usage in Niigata and beyond. Nou is the spelling used on the wiki page, the area literature and the train station. By leaving these alternatives it will help improve searchability for those using the alternative spellings. I don't think there is a case for being so hard and fast. Thanks. 8 March 17.44 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.168.192 (talk) 08:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Common usage" among who? The handful of JETs in the area? This isn't a popularity contest, and the style guidelines are clear on these issues. I think people can figure it out. The wiki page for Nō, Niigata was an oversight, by the way. If you can cite reliable sources that say 能生 is pronounced with a distinct "u" (rather than an elongated "no") then you have a case for changing it back. -Amake (talk) 10:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, I forgot to mention, nonstandard spellings are exactly what we have redirects for. Feel free to make some. -Amake (talk) 10:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response: This is just a very small handful of the sites that come up wih the terms Nou-machi / Nou-town or Oumi-machi / Oumi Town. As you see, these include official government sites (both prefectural and national) and links to official sites.
http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/japan/map/m361301/nou-machi.html
http://www.maff.go.jp/soshiki/koukai/muratai/21j/english/no5/mura12.html
http://www.maff.go.jp/soshiki/koukai/muratai/21j/english/no7/mura22.html
http://www.snowjapan.com/e/resorts/resortdetail.php?resid=288
http://www.towninfo.jp/c/urls/pref/Niigata.html
http://www002.upp.so-net.ne.jp/mineralhunters/main05_11.html
http://news.speeple.com/yahoo.com/2007/07/16/an-aerial-view-of-a-landslide-over-railway-tracks-at-oumi-town.htm
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowPDF&ArtikelNr=89413&Ausgabe=231486&ProduktNr=224270&filename=89413.pdf
http://www.city.niigata.jp/info/sansei/boeki/asp/kigyou/mainte/english/form1.html
http://www.watanabesato.co.jp/link/linkse/niigatae.html
http://academic1.plala.or.jp/itoigawa/link.htm
Need I go on?
Amake, your smug response is totally inappropriate. You do not live in the area and therefore cannot make such a judgement on what is common usage. I am not a JET and have a long association with the Chubu region. Please do not be so pedantic, especially when people are trying to help. FYI, Nou/No, as listed in the references, is also sometimes rendered as 'Noh'
I have changed the edits back and will add the above to the reference list if you like. I hope you will now respect the information provided.
- First of all, please sign your posts.
- Second, all those references tell us is that the pronunciation is indeed "Nō" (I asked you to provide sources that suggested 能生 was pronounced with a distinct "u"), and that those sources happen to use a different (outdated) form of rōmaji. The WP:MOS-JA is clear that we use Modified Hepburn here. If you would like to debate the MOS-JA, please choose a more appropriate forum.
- Searchability is not an issue when redirects are properly used. I suggest you use them. I have reverted your changes again. Please do not reinstate them.
- -Amake (talk) 22:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response:
- I am not disputing pronunciation but, as first stated, common usage. The above references show the towns and prefecture utilising the romaji spelling Nou and Oumi. Sure, this commonly used romaji (not just local JET's as you insinuated) may not fit with guidlines but it fits with what one sees and is used in the area every day. That is the purpose of the a.k.a. - to show that locally it is rendered in more than one manner. Wikipedia is about collective knowledge isn't it?
- Searchability - what about searches OUTSIDE of wikipedia? These may not pick up the alternate spelling and redirects are of no use in this case.
- I am not violating wikipedia's rules by posting anonymously and I have no intention of signing up. I noticed this post during one of my very irregular peeks iinto the site and felt I could help contribute. Obviously I shouldn't have bothered.
You might like to note that I emailed this link to former Japanese colleagues in Niigata who are bemused by your steadfastness. A current senior colleague in the language department once told me, "Never go to war with a language nazi - you'll die of attrition." So I won't bother getting into a revert war as I've wasted enough time already. Good luck in your life of petty bureaucracy because that is surely your calling in life... ;)
- You needn't sign up for an account in order to sign a post. Simply include ~~~~ after your post and it will note your IP address and the date. This has nothing to do with anonymity and everything to do with keeping track of who says what.
- I don't appreciate your personal attacks. I have responded civilly to you, and am disappointed that you have decided to insult me rather than either work within the guidelines or take your case to a more appropriate forum.
- The guidelines recommend usage of official names. If this was a case like Minoh, Osaka then that would be one thing. But Nō and Ōmi no longer exist as municipalities and therefore don't have official naming guidelines (unless you can find something from Itoigawa). The sources you cited use wildly inconsistent romanizations and are not grounds for establishing an official name.
- Therefore "Nou," "Noh," "Oumi," etc. amount to alternate romanizations. The inclusion of alternate romanizations has been debated on other articles such as Junichiro Koizumi, and the consensus has been a clear no.
- Given how schizophrenic Japan is when it comes to romanization methods, I don't doubt your Japanese colleagues are bemused. The fact is that Modified Hepburn is by far the best method when the audience is English readers. We have made this choice for a reason and frankly I get tired of explaining it to every IP user who comes along and thinks he knows better.
- -Amake (talk) 13:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- An IP user posted a relevant bit on my talk page that included this link to a sign at the JR Nō station showing "Nō" as the correct romanization. He also points out that a Google search for nou niigata finds the Nō, Niigata article as the first hit. -Amake (talk) 13:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- search Nou-machi or Nou Town or Nou Japan and wiki doesn't show up. Interestingly neither does Nō+niigata. Perhaps a case for common usage? And if you don't like personal attacks, please have a think about your condescending opening salvo on 'common usage'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.168.192 (talk) 13:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The town gets one name and one name only. You can't expect all of your pet romanizations (especially ones completely lacking context like "Nou Town") to get hits, unless perhaps you make redirects like I suggested a million times already. nō niigata finds the Nō, Niigata article as the 5th item. It will surely be the top hit as soon as Google reindexes the page, since I only corrected it in the last day or two. -Amake (talk) 21:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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