Talk:Israeli Jews/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Israeli Jewish population per metropolitan area

I cannot find any sources to this information. please provide relaible sources or else I would have to delete this section. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 08:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

The list of cities in Israel shows Jewish population that goes by Halakha, but not people with Jewish acestry I hink this should be changed to reflect a broader definition of who is a Jew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.20.119 (talk) 18:59, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

The list is based on the official data from the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 06:10, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Between Miri Ben Ari and Yitzak Perlman Miri Ben Ari is more influential, and after all we need more women, the change in picture for Natalie Portman is purely out opinion tho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.20.119 (talk) 03:44, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

We both know that Yitzak Perlman is one of the most successful and known Israeli musicans abroad and that he has gained a lot more recognition worldwide through the years than Miri Ben Ari. Why don't you sign up? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 06:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Miri Ben Ari= Extremely well known in American and Israeli Hip- Hop cirlces, by far the most influential calssical musician in popular circles. Yitzak Perlman = Extremely influential classical musician They are pretty equal if you ask me, and Miri Ben Ari is far better known amonst younger Israelis, Jews, and Americans I think she better represents Israeli society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.234.130 (talk) 22:34, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I see. Still I do not think we should add her - my main issue with this is that the template is becoming a hall of fame for only Israeli Politicians and Musicians - I think that instead we should try to find people whom have been influential in other fields. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Why do you insist on adding that other image of Natalie Portman? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

We need a sports figure, Im thinking Shahar Peer, Yossi Benayoun, or Shahar Zubari insead of Ariel Sharon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.235.246 (talk) 23:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Way to many Ashkenazi Jewish politicians in that 21 Israelis image. Not at all representative of Israeli Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.233.27 (talk) 23:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

See discussion below TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

The official number of Israeli Jews

The offical most updated number acording to the CBS is 5,634,300. I believe that this is the only number which should apear in the template. If anyone else besides the anonymous user disagrees with this decision please state so. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 08:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Your origions for Israeli Jews are completely wrong and unsourced, 68-70% of Israeli Jews (4,200,00) are Israel Born. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.232.178 (talk) 02:15, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

You'll find the most accurate data link commented out – open edit screen to see - as of 2009 70.7% of Israeli Jews (3,937,400) were Israeli born. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

There are now 6 million Israeli Jews

According to link commented out – open edit screen to see from November 6, 2012, there were 5,996,500 Jews living in Israel - 3,500 short of 6 million. The article said that statisticians claimed that the gap would be closed within days. So far, it's been 12 days, so I think it's safe to say that the number has now hit, and slightly surpassed, the 6 million mark.--RM (Be my friend) 23:16, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

The selection of notable Israeli Jews in the montage

The main question here is whether we are going to pick a selection of Israeli Jews whom would demonstrate the diversity of the Israeli Jews more precisely OR if we are going to pick the most notable and influential Israeli Jews from a wider variety of fields OR a combination of both possibilities.

The current montage which I have created is mostly composed of notable and influential Israeli Jews from a wider variety of fields (with a few exceptions):

• Ada Yonath
• Arcadi Gaydamak
• Shaul Mofaz
• Ariel Sharon
• Shahar Pe'er
• Natalie Portman
• Amos Oz
• Moshe Dayan
• Ilan Ramon
• David Ben-Gurion
• Yitzhak Rabin
• Menachem Begin
• Golda Meir
• Robert Aumann
• Yisrael Meir Lau
• Benyamin Netanyahu
• Aviv Geffen
• Dana International
• Eyal Golan
• Itzhak Perlman
• Ovadia Yosef

Please give reasons for or against the current people included and/or for your suggestions.

We need to reach a consensus on this matter through a discussion which would include (hopefully) many wikipedians about the final selection of people to be included in the montage. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think Arcadi Gaydamak is a poor choice.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:51, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

There are currently over a million Israeli Jews from the Former Soviet Union and Russia in Israel - in my opinion we need to pick at least one to be included in the montage. Arcadi Gaydamak was chosen because he is one of the most notable Jewish Russian immigrants in Israel. Do you have any better choices? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 08:07, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Natan Sharansky or Avigdor Lieberman for starters. Sports-wise, I think someone like Yossi Benayoun may be more recognisable than Pe'er. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:11, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

If there is no objection I'll replace Gaydamak's photo with Sharansky's photo. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 12:01, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

We need a model like Elena Ralph (who is a Russian Jew), NOT Bar Rafaeli she definitly doesn deserve to be in this image Binyamin Netanyahu with Shimon Peres Shimon is way more influential Peres is a noble peace prize winner, while Netanyahu is a very devicive figure Yossi Benayoun should replace Peer if a suitable image can be found 21 Israelis 1 square equals 4.7 or so % of the Jewish populationShlomo Molla represents the Ethiopians who are 2.3% i think he should be there, Indian Jews make up another 1.2% of the Jewish population so i think one of the groups preferably the Ethiopians because of their larger numbers needs to be represented instead of Sharon, this picture looks like an old Ashkenazi male Israeli politicians museum. Molla represents his community and the Jewish Agency so I think he should be there. I wont contest this but I still say that Miri Ben-Ari is better known than Perlman, although I won't argue this one, Also you CANNOT have a 21 Israelis image without Ofra Haza i think she should replace Aviv Geffen

Shimon Peres nobel prize winner should replace divisive Netanyahu

• Shimon Peres VS Benjamin Netanyahu - I think that at least one of the images needs to be of the current Israeli prime minister – the person holding this powerful position has an immense affect, immediately becomes one of the current most famous Israelis worldwide and besides, this powerful position is much more influential and notable than the position of the Israeli president (with all respect to Peres). Unless Netanyahu would manage to perform miracles and outdo his predecessors during his term, Netanyahu's image would definitely be changed to one of the next prime minister after he would finish his term. If anyone else besides the anonymous user disagrees with this decision please state so.
• Elena Ralph VS Bar Rafaeli - even though Bar Rafaeli is the most known and successful Israeli model, I do not think she or any other of the Israeli models should replace any of the current people chosen. If anyone else besides the anonymous user disagrees with this decision please state so.
• Yossi Benayoun VS Shahar Pe'er - I agree but please be patient this might take some time. I am currently trying to get a good photo of Yossi under a Creative Commons Attribution License. If no one objects to this I will later on replace Shahar Pe'er's photo with Yossi Benayoun's photo after an appropriate public domain photo would be available.
• Ethiopian Jews - The Israeli Jewish community of Ethiopia are a relative new small Aliyah (they are currently 2.1547% of the Israeli Jewish population which is 0.452487 out of 21). Sure they have had a couple of politicians and they have the talented Meskie Shibru-Sivan and Baruch Dego. Yet, in my opinion their current percentage is relative not significant enough (like the Russian immigration for example) and, in my opinion, none of their most notable members (which I mentioned above) is notable enough to replace any of the current people chosen. Besides, we do not have public domain images of neither Meskie nor of Baruch Dego. If anyone else besides the anonymous user disagrees with this decision please state so.
• Indian Jews – an even smaller community than the Israeli Jewish community of Ethiopia and, in my opinion, none of their most notable members is notable enough to replace any of the current people chosen. If anyone else besides the anonymous user disagrees with this decision please state so.
• Miri Ben-Ari VS Itzhak Perlman - just look what Perlman’s wikipedia article says - "He is widely considered as one of the preeminent violin virtuosi of the 20th century". I rest my case.
• Ofra Haza - one of the most successful and notable Israeli singers - unfortunately there are no public domain images of her available yet on wikipedia.

TheCuriousGnome (talk) 08:01, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

What kind of panorama has 4 Mizrahim out of 21 Israelis. Technically, there should be 8 - 10. Where is Ofra Haza, Shaul Mofaz, Ninet Tayeb, Rita Klienstien,  Shai Agassi, Eli Yishai, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, Sarit Hadad, Gabi Ashkenazi, Sivan Shalom,................. This is very Ashkenazi centric. There are very few Mizrahim on the english wikipedia so please don't acuse me of being the only concerned Israeli, the fact is that the infobox here keeps changing, and this one is terribly biased towards half of the Israeli Jewish population and for the sake of accuracy it must change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ShlomoHasoon (talk • contribs) 02:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The current montage is mostly composed of notable and influential Israeli Jews from a wider variety of fields (with a few exceptions) rather than selecting the most notable Israelis according to their exact proportion in the Israeli Jewish population from a small variety of fields (I am not a big fan of filling the montage with minor politicians and singers). Please be more specific in your suggestions – explain which people specifically in the current montage should be replaced with whom and why the people you suggest are more notable / the most notable in their field. As I mentioned before, I would add Ofra Haza but there is no free image of her. I would definitely consider replacing Moshe Dayan with Gabi Ashkenazi if there would be a consensus for this change (Not because he is a Mizrahi Israeli Jew but because he is the current Chief of General Staff). In my opinion, none of your other suggestions is notable enough to replace any of the current people chosen. If any other user besides Shlomo Hasoon disagrees with this decision please state so. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 06:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I created a new montage. Fist of all, the previous montage had to many politicians. No nation has so much prime minister among images, when due to controversy it's actually suggested to avoid politicians (same thing religious figures).

Second, the little amount of Mizrahis is a discriminating thing. Some people say that the picture should just show famous Israelis, but there were quite a few famous Mizrahis so it's not a problem.

Another problem was the lack of some really famous Israelis. Not having Ephraim Koshon, a legend in world cinema, or Shmuel Agnon is really a shock.

The selection I put is constucted from names brought up here before:

• Natalie Portman (Ashkenazi) - The most famous Israeli actress ever, won an Academy award.
• Itzhak Perlman (Ashkenazi) - The most famous Israeli musician ever.
• Yossi Benayoun (Mizrahi) - The most famous Israel footballer ever, being on of the leaders of Liverpool at the time.
• Yuval Banay, (Mizrahi) - Mashina was voted to be the Israeli top band ever and he is their leader.
• Ephraim Kishon (Ashkenazi) - The most important Israeli director and satirist, nominated for Academy award and for Golden Globe.
• Shmuel Yosef Agnon (Ashkenazi) - The most important Israeli writer ever.
• Ofra Haza, (Mizrahi) - The most famous Israeli singer in the world, brough mizrahi music into the mainstream.
• Eli Cohen (Mizrahi) - "The Israeli James Bond", got valuable information for Israel.

I think that selection represents Israelis in a more equal way. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 21:46, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

People whom appear in the Jewish ethnic divisions section

The current people

The current choices are:

• Ashkenazi Jews

• Former Soviet Union and Russia - Chaim Weizmann
• Poland - David Ben-Gurion
• Ukraine - Golda Meir
• Germany - Robert Aumann
• Bulgaria - Moni Moshonov
• Hungary - Uri Geller
• North America - Stanley Fischer
• Romania - Shlomo Artzi
• Greece - Pavlo Rozenberg

• Mizrahi Jews and Sephardic Jews

• Morocco - Yossi Benayoun
• Yemen - Ofra Haza
• Iraq - Eli Yishai
• Iran - Shaul Mofaz
• Syria - Yisrael Hasson
• Libya - David D'or
• Azerbaijan/Armenia/Georgia/Southern Russia (Mountain Jews) - Sarit Hadad
• Tunisia - Yael Naim
• Turkey - Berry Sakharof
• India - Liel Kolet

• Beta Israel

• Shlomo Molla

If anyone disagrees with this, please suggest the representatives whom you think are better choices BELOW. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Rstin18's Suggestions

This is a ridiculous and an extremely racist idea. Why not just include people who deserve to be there, regardless of their DNA? What does it matter if the infobox is 70%, 60%, 50% or 0% Ashkenazi, Mizrahi or Black?

And besides, what is wrong with the one we have today? In a couple of days we'll have yet another collection of silly dumb pop stars, in the name of political correctness... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rstin18 (talk • contribs) 00:23, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

That being said, if you still insist on doing that, then, then it should be according to every group's share of the population:

Soviet Jews - 25% (Moshe Dayan, Shmuel Yosef Agnon, Golda Meir)

North African Jews - 15-20%

Polish Jews - 8-10% (David Ben Gurion)

Romanian Jews - 7-10% (Shlomo Artzi)

Iraqi Jews - 6-7%

North American Jews - 4% (Stanley Fischer, Natalie Portman)

Yemeni Jews - 3-4% (Ofra Haza)

Persian Jews - 3-4%

German Jews - 3% (Robert Aumann)

and so on.

We have 24 pics. That means Ethiopian, Indian and Latin American Jews, for instance, shouldn't be here, seeing as each of these groups make up less than 2.5% of the population (The first two didn't even contribute anything major to Israel or the world)

David Ben Gurion, Natalie Portman, Ilan Ramon and Shmuel Yosef Agnon must be included. They're few of the most notable and successful Israelis, each representing different fields.

Amir Peretz is an embarrassment to all Moroccan Jews, politicians and humanity. He's also a highly controversial figure.Rstin18 (talk) 00:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Two problems with this:

1. What are the sources of the percentage you have just written?

2. It isn't really possible to determine the exact proportions of each ethnic division since there are a lot of mixed marriages.

Therefore, in my opinion, it makes much more sense to put only one image for each prominent ethic division (not images of Israeli Swedes for example) to illustrate the ethnic diversity in Israel.

Even though Amir Peretz has his flaws, who are you to determine that he is a big embarrassment to all Moroccan Jews? As far as I know he is the only one from his ethnic division whom reached the highest ranked positions (Defense Minister and leader of the Labour Party!). Due to the current consensus about including Peretz, for now we'll keep Yossi Benayoun as the representative of the Israeli Moroccan Jews instead. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Shlomo Hasoon's suggestions

• North America - Raviv Ullman
• Greece - Shiri Maimon - Also Tunisian, Syrian, Morrocan
• South Africa - Abba Eban
• Morocco - Eyal Golan - Also Yemenite
• Tunisia - Ninet Tayeb - Also Morrocan
• Turkey - Shlomi Shabat
• Central Asia - Idan Yaniv

The point of these boxes shouldn't be to praise prominet Israelis it should be to illustrate Israeli ethnic diversity, the infobox is for prominent Israelis

First of all I wanted to point out that we should avoid adding the descendants of mixed-marriages within the Ashkenazi Jews section AND the within the Mizrahi Jews and Sephardic Jews section (Eyal Golan and Ninet Tayeb for example) - we need to include only one representative from each sub-group to prevent the gallery sections getting out of proportions. The reason I try to choose the most prominent people I can find from each ethnic division is because we need some sort of inclusion criteria. Shlomi Shabat and Idan Yaniv have no free images. I'll definitely add Abba Eban. Raviv Ullman is not more notable than the Nobel Prize winner Robert Aumann. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 06:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

TheCuriousGnome suggestion

In case we won't be able to agree on the inclusion criteria, we could always remove the galleries from this section to prevent having an eternal dispute over this minor issue of the article. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I have no further disagrements I think that we should focus on representing all remaining groups with a population of over 50,000; i.e if we want to fill these groups in we may need to upload to the wikipedia commons

• Baltic States- ?
• The Balkans- ?
• Scandinavia-?(Less than 50,000)
• The Low Contries- Ophir Pines-Paz
• Italy - ?
• Egypt- ?
• Bukharian Jews (Central Asia)-Important - Idan Yaniv, or Yisrael Aharoni
• Lebanon-?(Less than 50,000)
• Algeria-? I guess its combined with Tunisia
• Afganistan - ?(Less than 50,000)
• Pakistan - Combined with India (far less than 50,000 anyways)

If you do not agree to ad more boxes I think that the gallery is fine as it is, and as new pictures of people like Idan Yaniv, ect are added to the wikipedia it can expand over time.

Toda Rabah :) --ShlomoHasoon (talk) 00:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I am glad you are finally happy with the current gallery section, yet, I am not sure the gallery section is necessary/benefits the article. The whole gallery section has become too big - it would be better to show the notable people from each sub division in the templates located at the top of the articles about each ethnic sub-group (like this one for example).

A pie chart might work much better (I'll need to have some official CBS data to be able to generate those) and/or a picture of ONE selected person from each ethnic division would work much better (whom would you choose?). TheCuriousGnome (talk) 17:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to rain on your parade, guys, but there is a very poor article. It has no focus whatsoever. It flits all over, from one subject to another, offering a hodge-podge of potted history from the Israel page, the same photos from the Israel page, a zillion different bits and pieces that don't add up to any understanding of the topic. The gallery is also ridiculous. What is this? Wikipedia's Israeli Hall of Fame. Please stop arguing and clean this article up!!! As it is, it's a joke.--Gilabrand (talk) 17:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed this is what I feared. I created the gallery section originally for the sake of the users whom felt that there weren't enough representaion of the Israeli Mizrahi Jews, the Israeli Sephardic Jews and the Israeli Beta Israel Jews In the top infobox template. Does anyone else feel the same way as Gilabrand?

I agree that the article still needs much work. Would you be able to help us improve the article? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 22:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

This article is too long, but I think the galleries are unessicary if the page would contain a detailed breakdown of the Israeli population, like the one that was on the page origionally. I think it was deleted because it was unsourced but it was sourced from 1996 and adjusted for the 2008 Israeli Jewish population. I think that we need to delete the galleries and replace them with the breakdown that is on the Jewish ethnic divisions page, with a disclimer of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ShlomoHasoon (talk • contribs) 01:15, 19 February 2010 (UTC) --ShlomoHasoon (talk) 01:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

updated to 2008 or to 1996 - either way, it should be added only if you would be able to find reliable sources to confirm the data. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 06:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Equal Representation version

I created a new montage. Fist of all, the previous montage had to many politicians. No nation has so much prime minister among images, when due to controversy it's actually suggested to avoid politicians (same thing religious figures).

Second, the little amount of Mizrahis is a discriminating thing. Some people say that the picture should just show famous Israelis, but there were quite a few famous Mizrahis so it's not a problem.

Another problem was the lack of some really famous Israelis. Not having Ephraim Koshon, a legend in world cinema, or Shmuel Agnon is really a shock.

The selection I put is constucted from names brought up here before:

• Natalie Portman (Ashkenazi) - The most famous Israeli actress ever, won an Academy award.
• Itzhak Perlman (Ashkenazi) - The most famous Israeli musician ever.
• Yossi Benayoun (Mizrahi) - The most famous Israel footballer ever, being on of the leaders of Liverpool at the time.
• Yuval Banay, (Mizrahi) - Mashina was voted to be the Israeli top band ever and he is their leader.
• Ephraim Kishon (Ashkenazi) - The most important Israeli director and satirist, nominated for Academy award and for Golden Globe.
• Shmuel Yosef Agnon (Ashkenazi) - The most important Israeli writer ever.
• Ofra Haza, (Mizrahi) - The most famous Israeli singer in the world, brough mizrahi music into the mainstream.
• Eli Cohen (Mizrahi) - "The Israeli James Bond", got valuable information for Israel.

I think that selection represents Israelis in a more equal way. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 21:46, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

The amount of Jews in Israel according to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics

I believe we should refrain from adding the data in "Thereof: Jews" column to this article simply because this data includes - "Jews, population not classified by religion and non-Arab Christians." - Mostly non Jews and people whom do not classify themselves as Jews. Does anyone disagree? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 18:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

The vast majority of these people do consider themselves Jewish only under Halackha that are not it is kind of racist not to show them as a possibilliy (that is the maximum Jewish population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.228.236 (talk) 03:24, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

We cannot and should not keep the data of the "Thereof: Jews" in this article simply because it consists of population groups which do not consider themselves Jewish: it includes any Israeli citizens whom are not classified by religion and any non-Arab Christians. Does anyone else beside the anonymous contributor believe that we should add this data? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 04:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

It's not so simple. An ethnic Jews doesn't have to be a Jew by religion, if a Jew converts to Christianity or to Islam he is still ethnically Jew. From the other hand, an English person converted to Judaism is not ethnically a Jew because he is ethnically an English person. This number can be used to describe ethnic Jews, (though I'm sure some of them are converts, I still think this number can be used), but it can't be a reference to how many people in Israel are Jews by religion. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 18:26, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

The selection of notable Israeli Jews in the montage 2

First of all, I must emphasize that I definitely agree that we should always be able to conduct renewed polite discussions, without edit wars or any other aggressive actions, in which the majority of the participants would eventually decide, based on a broad consensus, whether to replace specific personalities included in the montage with other more prominent personalities. As such I have decided to refrain from changing the montage proposed by the anonymous user 79.99.144.141, which currently appears at the top of the article Israeli Jews to anything else (even though, in my opinion he/she should have reached a consensus in the discussion page for their proposed changes before changing the existing long standing montage) until there would be a wider consensus in this discussion page on this matter.

I have created bellow a comparison between the two montages proposed so far. Anyone whom is familiar with this topic should indicate bellow which of these montages they prefer, and in addition, if needed, specify the necessary changes you think should be made to your preferred montage. (or alternatively, add new proposals for completely different montages to be discussed here).

The important initial feedback we would receive in this discussion from a wide range of users would of course help us later on decide whether further discussions are needed on various aspects (such as changing specific figures with other figures, changing specific images with better images, etc...) in order that we eventually reach a composition which would be to the satisfactory of the majority of the participants in the discussions held here on this issue.

Note: in your feedback please state your opinion regarding the core issues in dispute – Do you think the selection of people in the montage should be based on the exact current gender percentages or the exact current Jewish ethnic divisions percentages OR instead mostly focus on presenting the most prominent figures in a variety of fields/professions? (for example – do you think that prominent figures such as Nobel prize winners or the only Israeli astronaut should be replaced with a female Mizrahi singer or female Spheradic politician simply because they are of Ashkenazi origin and are males?)

TheCuriousGnome (talk) 06:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Previous version of the montage Israeli Jews יהודים ישראלים Row 1: Ada Yonath  • Robert Aumann  • Natalie Portman  • Natan Sharansky  • Amos Oz  • Yossi Benayoun  • Shahar Pe'er Row 2: Moshe Dayan  • Ilan Ramon  • David Ben-Gurion  • Yitzhak Rabin  • Menachem Begin  • Golda Meir  • Ariel Sharon Row 3: Yisrael Meir Lau  • Benyamin Netanyahu  • Aviv Geffen  • Dana International  • Eyal Golan  • Itzhak Perlman  • Ovadia Yosef Regions with significant populations Israel        5,985,100 (September 2012)* 75.4% of the Israeli population United States 106,839–800,000 Canada 10,755 - 30,000 United Kingdom ~30,000 Languages Historical Jewish languages Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, and other Jewish languages (most endangered, and some now extinct) Liturgical languages Hebrew and Aramaic Predominant spoken languages Modern Israeli Hebrew, English, Russian Religion Judaism Related ethnic groups Ashkenazi Jews · Sephardic Jews · Mizrahi Jews and other Jewish ethnic divisions * The official CBS estimate of the Israeli Jewish population does not include Israeli ethnic Jews not considered to be Jewish under halakha as well as their ethnic Jewish/non-Jewish immediate family members.

New version of the montage Israeli Jews יהודים ישראלים File:Itzhak perlman.jpg Natalie Portman • Itzhak Perlman • Yossi Benayoun • Yuval Banay Ephraim Kishon • Shmuel Yosef Agnon • Achinoam Nini • Shai Agassi Regions with significant populations Israel        5,985,100 (September 2012)* 75.4% of the Israeli population United States 106,839–800,000 Canada 10,755 - 30,000 United Kingdom ~30,000 Languages Historical Jewish languages Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, and other Jewish languages (most endangered, and some now extinct) Liturgical languages Hebrew and Aramaic Predominant spoken languages Modern Israeli Hebrew, English, Russian Religion Judaism Related ethnic groups Ashkenazi Jews · Sephardic Jews · Mizrahi Jews and other Jewish ethnic divisions * The official CBS estimate of the Israeli Jewish population does not include Israeli ethnic Jews not considered to be Jewish under halakha as well as their ethnic Jewish/non-Jewish immediate family members.

Feedback

• Previous version of the montage was better, but I am willing to consider certain changes – In my opinion, the previous long standing version of the montage is still much better than the completely new version created by the anonymous user 79.99.144.141 as it is mostly composed of some of the most prominent internationally known figures from the Israeli Jewish community in the present (such as the current prime minister and the current most prominent internationally known athletes, the current most prominent internationally known actress, the current most prominent religious leaders from both Jewish ethnic divisions, the current most prominent internationally known singers from various types of musical genres, and the two most prominent internationally known Nobel Prize winners) in addition to some of the most prominent internationally known figures from Israel's history, and yet the figures included in this montage are also from a wider variety of fields AND in addition I believe that that montage also demonstrates the diversity of the Israeli Jewish community as it includes various people from different ethnic background and of both genders (although it is not based on the exact current gender percentages or the exact current Jewish ethnic divisions percentages). Either way, no matter what we would decide eventually, I still believe that the future montage should continue to contain 21 people and I still believe that we must refrain from falling into the trap in which this montage would only be based on the exact current gender percentages or the exact current Jewish ethnic divisions percentages, and the reason for that is because I believe that if we would decided to do so would definitely end up replacing some of the most prominent internationally known figures with much less prominent figures, whom have contributed much less to the world, such as various singers, politicians and business people mostly known only in Israel and whom are not considered to be the most prominent or notable in their profession/field. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 06:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
• Previous version of the montage was better - I wholeheartedly agree with TheCuriousGnome's arguments above. --GHcool (talk) 07:24, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Do you think we should change any of the personalities in the previous version of the montage with other personalities you think are more prominent? Maybe a specific figure from the new montage proposed by the anonymous user 79.99.144.141? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

94.3.21.223 makes a fair point about Mizrahi/Sephardi Jews being underrepresented in the first version. Perhaps Shai Agassi or Achinoam Nini can replace Aviv Geffen. --GHcool (talk) 18:40, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! But what do you think about the absence in the old version of people like Kishon and Agnon? Or from the other hand, presence of people like Ovadia Yosef and Eyal Golan? Also, what do you think about the number of Prime Ministers? Your opinion is important regarding every issue due to the fact that will help shape the image. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 21:27, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

GHcool, do you think the montage should be based on the exact current Jewish ethnic divisions percentages within the Israeli Jewish community? what about the gender percentages? should we make sure that the montage would be composed of 50% women and 50% men AND 50% Ashkenazi Jews and 45% Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews even though that would mean that some of the most internationally prominent Israeli Jews, such as a noble prize winners, would be replaced with much less notable figures, such as female Mizrahi music singers or a female Sephardi politician just because they are females+non-Ashkenazi?). I am not completely against this proposal BUT still I object to the core of the idea that the selection would be based on the EXACT gender and ethnic origin percentages, if this means that the we would have to choose certain people only because they are Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews or only because they are females – and not because they are the MOST notable figures in their field. (GHcool, please state your opinion, more elaborately if possible, on this specific issue). TheCuriousGnome (talk) 03:57, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

No, I don't think it needs to reflect the EXACT proportions of Israeli society. It is a fact that there have been only Ashkenazi prime ministers, and almost all of them were males, for example. Nobody is suggesting that we remove Ben Gurion so that Achinoam Nini can be represented. Ideally, I'd like the Israeli Jews montage to look something like the American Jews template. --GHcool (talk) 18:42, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• New version of the montage is better: First of all, half of Israeli are Sephardi and Mizrahi, not having equal representation is simply unfair. Second, why does the image need to many politicians? It really feeds the negative stereotype of Israel. Third, Ovadia Iosef? Are you kidding me? The guy is considered a clown and a racist in Israel. Forth, Two of the most famous Israelis abroad are Ephraim Kishon and Agnon. How can you not have those two figures in the image of Israelis? Fifth, Dana International is a one-hit-wonder so it's embarrassing thats who you have to put in the image. If there would not be other candidates, fine, but there are Ofra Haza and Achinoam Nini who became famous worldwide, and are also Yemenite singer women. I know Haza doesn't have a free picture, but Nini does. You can't ignore those issues are real issues, and I don't mind using the old version as a "base" but it's obvious that those stuff should be taken to consideration. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 09:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

What about the gender percentages? Do you think that we must also make sure that there are 50% males and 50% females? (sooner or later, in the same way you complained that there isn't an adequate representation for Mizrahi and Spheradic Jews, in the future Israeli Jewish females would complain that there isn't an adequate representation for women, or an Israeli Jew from Russian descent would complain that there isn't an adequate representation for the Israeli Jewish population of Russian decent – what should we do then?).

I agree that Agnon, Kishon, and Nathan Alterman should be considered in the final montage, nevertheless, because the meaning of inserting them all to the montage would be that other prominent figures would be kicked out, I believe that we should rather consider these options very carefully further ahead, when we'll have discussions of the finalized selection, so that the montage would continue to contain the most prominent figures in a variety of different fields.

We do not have a free picture of Ofra Haza and therefore we can not add her to the montage. Although she has gained success, I believe that Achinoam Nini IS NOT one of the most prominent Israeli singers and therefore I object to including her in the montage, even though she is non-Ashkenazi and female. In my opinion, Aviv Geffen, Dana International and Eyal Golan are some of the most influential singers in three different genres (Rock, Pop, Mizrahi music). I object to only including a prominent musician or singer of pop or rock music and not having in addition also a prominent singer of the Mizrahi music genre. Ideally I would rather we include Zohar Argov instead of Eyal Golan, but since we do not have a free picture of Argov, I think that Golan is the second most prominent singer of that genre of all times and the most prominent singer in this genre as of today (unlike Nini whom is not the most prominent singer in her genre). In my opinion Dana International is one of the most successful Israeli pop stars ever to exist (despite not producing other major hits), and one of the most known Israeli singers abroad in her genre, nevertheless, this is I wouldn't mind re-considering this choice at the final stage of this process, when well debate whom should be included in the final list and whom would be kicked out.

Regarding Ovadia Yosef – I believe that a montage of prominent figures in the Israeli Jewish community MUST contain one or two of the religious leaders. As such, in order to be balanced, whatever we decided I think the montage should include both a Ashkenazi religious leader and Sephardi religious leader. The reason Ovadia Yosef was chosen is because as of today he is considered the most prominent Sephardic rabbi in the Israeli Jewish community and because he is the most powerful of the Sephardic rabbis (he is the spiritual leader of the Shas political party). Nevertheless, if the rest of the participants in this discussion would prefer that he would be removed from the montage, I would suggest that we would include the current Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel (Shlomo Amar) and the current Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel (Yona Metzger) instead of Ovadia Yosef and Yisrael Meir Lau.

Regarding the point you made about having too many politicians – I agree that we could re-consider this point at the end of this process. Nevertheless, In my opinion David Ben Gurion should definitely be included in the montage no matter what. I myself think the ones whom appeared in the previous montage were all worthy of being included as they were the most influential and internationally known leaders (with all respect to Natalie Portman, Itzhak Perlman, Yossi Benayoun, Yuval Banay, Ephraim Kishon, Shmuel Yosef Agnon, Achinoam Nini and Shai Agassi whom are far less influential, prominent and known world wide). In addition, having Golda Meir in the montage helps us in presenting more females in the montage. In addition I must state that I think we would be making a mistake removing Ilan Ramon simply because he is not Mizrahi or Sephardic.TheCuriousGnome (talk) 04:34, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll starts with the end. I don't mind the image containing two religios people, but first of all, they don't have to be leaders, second, do you have to pick a walking comedy show no one likes called Ovadia Yosef? If you want a religious figure, fine. Rabbi Amsalem, people love him and he is respected by both religious (not the ultra) and the secular circles. Again, Yosef is the worse figure in the old image, worse then Eyal Golan. I am also against Rabbi Ammar and Rabbi Metzger, we need people who don't casue controversy and spread hate, that's why I suggested Rabbi Amsalem. And Agnon was religious, we can add Robert Aumann from the old picture and he is religious, we don't have to pick people whose whole activity is based only on the religious thing, otherwise a secular person might come and say I want Yair Lapid, the leader of the secular Israelis.

Now about Dana International, she is not an international star, having one hit doesnt make her a top start. Ofra Haza and Achinoam Nini are much bigger starts then her on an international level, they are both highly respected.

About Kishon, Alterman and Agnon, those are the three most important people in Israeli culture, so whoever is kicked out for them, it's worth it. Besides, if you will use the old thing as the base (which I'm against, but in theory), there is a huge amount of people there who I would never call notable, and there are too many politicians there, so if we leave Ben Gurion and Begin (or GOlda Meir and Begin if you are doing the 50%-50% male-female thing) it will be more then enough to represent Israeli politics.

Aviv Geffen was very influencial in rock, but he is far from being the most influencial. Sakharof, Einstein, Hanoh... those guy influenced much more then him. Sakharof was called the prince of Rock N Roll in the 90s, at the same time Geffen was active. The king is Shalom Hanoh.

I don't think we need a Mizrahi music singer, having a singer of Mizrahi heritage who have different Mizrahi influences in their music like Haza is enough.

No other nation has so many politicians in the image, and it's true they were important international figures but duh, all prime ministers are. I am not just doing it against Bibi and Sharon, I am a total leftie and I am also saying to remove Rabin and Meir. I don't think there should be more then 2 politicians.

I don't know why Ilan Ramon was removed, the thing is, with all due respect to him being the first Israeli in space, I don't see the Italians putting the first Italian in space or the Germans putting the first German in space. I think only the Russians and the Ulster-Scots did that (Gagarin and Armstrong, but those guys were really the first).

Hi :-) I don't really think having the same amount of male and female is mandatory, if you really want we can but I think the ethnic issue is more important. I am basing it on what other guys did. I took part in making the one for Belarusians, Latvians an when doing it I head to learn what others do to, as long as you have not less then 20%-25% women usually people are fine with it (the old one had 21%, the new one has 25%).

That's true, but I actually suggested who we should people instead. Kishon can go instead of Meir Lau, Nini instead of Dana International, Agnon instead of Sharon, Agassi instead of Golan, and we get rid of Yosef, Meir and Rabin (though you brough up a good point, Meir is a female, so we can get rid of someone else, like Amos Oz, due to the fact that with all due respect, Alterman and Kishon are more known then him, though I did hear about Oz). What I'm saying is, we can always work it out.

Ofra Haza and Achinoam Nini are much bigger names then Dana International. Dana International had one hit, while Ofra Haza had songs shown on MTV and Achinoam Nini performed at the Live8 concert with Bono and Bob Geldof, performed at the Carnegie Hall in New York, recorded the part of Esmeralda in French for the original soundtrack of the multi-Platinum selling Notre Dame de Paris, recorded songs for the Life is Beautiful and GoldenEye films and recorded songs with people like Sting and Sheryl Crow, Dana International can't compete with all that!

I have no idea in Mizrahi music, my wife is Israeli and is not a big fan of it, I don't know much about that, but Argov from what I know went to jail for rape, while Eyal Golan is considered a male-bimbo weirdo. As a Mizrahi singer from some research I did I think we should include Amir Benayoun. He is famous and even I heard few of his songs, and from what I saw on the picture, religious, and you did mention having representatives to religios people so he can join Agnon as religious representatives.

Yeah but I'm sure clowns like Ovadia Yosef are not the only ones the religious community has to offer! I afree with what was said in top, it's enough to have religious people, but they don't have to be chief rabbis, they can be scientists or artists who happen to be religious people.

I don't agree that politicians and prime ministers are more important then artists or scientists. In other infoboxes people make sure not to have any political figures and just a bit of past figures. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 10:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• Previous version of the montage was better: I like the one with 1. smaller images 2. more images 3. images are the same number in a row 4. is in overall smaller. In other words, four reasons I like the previous template better. Debresser (talk) 06:43, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Note: I changed the Hebrew from "Yahadut Israel" to "Yehudim Israelim", that is from "Israeli Judaism" to "Israeli Jews". Debresser (talk) 06:40, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

All of those things can be fixed in the new montage as well. Please state what your opinion is regarding the other core issues in dispute – Do you think the selection of people in the montage should be based on the exact current gender percentages or the exact current Jewish ethnic divisions percentages OR instead mostly focus on presenting the most prominent figures in a variety of fields/professions? (for example – do you think that prominent figures such as Nobel prize winners or the only Israeli astronaut should be replaced with a female Mizrahi singer or female Spheradic politician simply because they are of Ashkenazi origin and are males?) TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:08, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

It's not like that. No one said to replace nobel prize winnder with "a mizrahi singer or a female mizrahi politician". If The Mizrahi singer is Nini then we are talking about a huge internationlal start. Those who I suggested to replace were weird guys like Ovadia Yosef and Eyal Golan or the huge amount of politicians. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 10:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I think inclusion should be based on prominence, and should not necessarily reflect gender or ethnic populace percentages. But it should look like the old template. For me, that is more important than the questions you insist I answer. Debresser (talk) 17:58, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• Old version is better. But see my comments in the section below. --Dweller (talk) 14:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

References

How to move this forward

This conversation is majorly hamstrung because it's skipping an essential first stage: establishing consensus on what criteria we should look for. Starting with number of images, because that would be least contentious, I suggest? --Dweller (talk) 14:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Number of images

Fine, I'll propose several dozen. Israeli Jews is a very broad group, so we need representatives from each subgroup - some Ashkenazim, Sephardim, native, American, Russian, politicians, religious leaders, sports figures, men, women, and so on and so forth. ypnypn (talk) 00:19, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I understand your desire not to specify an exact figure, but I struggle to understand the "several" in "several dozen"... are you saying 20-30, 30-40, 40-50, 50-60 or more or less than any of those options? Clarity when trying to resolve a dispute is really a priceless value. --Dweller (talk) 01:13, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

How about 21? (the number of notable figures whom currently appear in the montage used in the article) In my opinion it is the ideal number since it is a relatively high number but yet not too high, thus it allows us to display a wide range of notable people while each of their portraits is still clearly visible. In addition, I think that going with 21 photos also produce a end result which looks good (when displaying the images in equal size at three rows containing seven images in each row) – the same number is also used in various other similar articles (example 1, example 2, example 3, example 4 and example 5). Other possible options, in my opinion, would be to go with 32 notable figures (see example), 30 (see example), 27 (see example), or 18 (see example). TheCuriousGnome (talk) 07:40, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I'd support 21. --Dweller (talk) 10:00, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I can support 21. ypnypn (talk) 16:19, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Gender percentages VS current Jewish ethnic divisions percentages VS most prominent figures in a variety of fields/professions

What is the most important factor we should take into consideration?

• Note – I placed the current montage in use in options 3 and 4 below for illustration purposes only – because at this point that montage is the only montage we got which represents figures from a variety of fields/professions without being strict on exact gender percentages or exact ethnic divisions percentages.

• Note 2 - the meaning of options 1 & 2 would be that we would have to choose the selected figures based on their gender and ethnicity - which means, in some cases we might have to go with a much less prominent person in a certain field/profession in order to add a figure of a specific ethnicity or gender.

Option 1 (Based first and foremost on exact gender percentages) Israeli Jews יהודים ישראלים Row 1: name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name Row 2: name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name Row 3: name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name Regions with significant populations Israel        5,985,100 (September 2012)* 75.4% of the Israeli population United States 106,839–800,000 Canada 10,755 - 30,000 United Kingdom ~30,000 Languages Historical Jewish languages Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, and other Jewish languages (most endangered, and some now extinct) Liturgical languages Hebrew and Aramaic Predominant spoken languages Modern Israeli Hebrew, English, Russian Religion Judaism Related ethnic groups Ashkenazi Jews · Sephardic Jews · Mizrahi Jews and other Jewish ethnic divisions * The official CBS estimate of the Israeli Jewish population does not include Israeli ethnic Jews not considered to be Jewish under halakha as well as their ethnic Jewish/non-Jewish immediate family members.

Option 2 (Based first and foremost on current exact Jewish ethnic divisions percentages and afterwards on gender percentages) Israeli Jews יהודים ישראלים Male of Ashkenazi origin Male of Ashkenazi origin Male of Ashkenazi origin Male of Ashkenazi origin Male of Ashkenazi origin Female of Ashkenazi origin Female of Ashkenazi origin Female of Ashkenazi origin Female of Ashkenazi origin Female of Ashkenazi origin Other ethnic division Male of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Male of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Male of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Male of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Male of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Female of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Female of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Female of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Female of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Female of Sephardi/Mizrahi origin Row 1: name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name Row 2: name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name Row 3: name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name  • name Regions with significant populations Israel        5,985,100 (September 2012)* 75.4% of the Israeli population United States 106,839–800,000 Canada 10,755 - 30,000 United Kingdom ~30,000 Languages Historical Jewish languages Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, and other Jewish languages (most endangered, and some now extinct) Liturgical languages Hebrew and Aramaic Predominant spoken languages Modern Israeli Hebrew, English, Russian Religion Judaism Related ethnic groups Ashkenazi Jews · Sephardic Jews · Mizrahi Jews and other Jewish ethnic divisions * The official CBS estimate of the Israeli Jewish population does not include Israeli ethnic Jews not considered to be Jewish under halakha as well as their ethnic Jewish/non-Jewish immediate family members.

Option 3 (montage should aim at presenting the most prominent figures internationally in a variety of fields/professions with several exceptions in order to make it less Ashkenazi and male dominant) Israeli Jews יהודים ישראלים Row 1: Ada Yonath  • Robert Aumann  • Natalie Portman  • Natan Sharansky  • Amos Oz  • Yossi Benayoun  • Shahar Pe'er Row 2: Moshe Dayan  • Ilan Ramon  • David Ben-Gurion  • Yitzhak Rabin  • Menachem Begin  • Golda Meir  • Ariel Sharon Row 3: Yisrael Meir Lau  • Benyamin Netanyahu  • Aviv Geffen  • Dana International  • Eyal Golan  • Itzhak Perlman  • Ovadia Yosef Regions with significant populations Israel        5,985,100 (September 2012)* 75.4% of the Israeli population United States 106,839–800,000 Canada 10,755 - 30,000 United Kingdom ~30,000 Languages Historical Jewish languages Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, and other Jewish languages (most endangered, and some now extinct) Liturgical languages Hebrew and Aramaic Predominant spoken languages Modern Israeli Hebrew, English, Russian Religion Judaism Related ethnic groups Ashkenazi Jews · Sephardic Jews · Mizrahi Jews and other Jewish ethnic divisions * The official CBS estimate of the Israeli Jewish population does not include Israeli ethnic Jews not considered to be Jewish under halakha as well as their ethnic Jewish/non-Jewish immediate family members.

Option 4 (montage should always present only the most prominent figures internationally in a variety of fields/professions without any exceptions) Israeli Jews יהודים ישראלים Row 1: Ada Yonath  • Robert Aumann  • Natalie Portman  • Natan Sharansky  • Amos Oz  • Yossi Benayoun  • Shahar Pe'er Row 2: Moshe Dayan  • Ilan Ramon  • David Ben-Gurion  • Yitzhak Rabin  • Menachem Begin  • Golda Meir  • Ariel Sharon Row 3: Yisrael Meir Lau  • Benyamin Netanyahu  • Aviv Geffen  • Dana International  • Eyal Golan  • Itzhak Perlman  • Ovadia Yosef Regions with significant populations Israel        5,985,100 (September 2012)* 75.4% of the Israeli population United States 106,839–800,000 Canada 10,755 - 30,000 United Kingdom ~30,000 Languages Historical Jewish languages Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, and other Jewish languages (most endangered, and some now extinct) Liturgical languages Hebrew and Aramaic Predominant spoken languages Modern Israeli Hebrew, English, Russian Religion Judaism Related ethnic groups Ashkenazi Jews · Sephardic Jews · Mizrahi Jews and other Jewish ethnic divisions * The official CBS estimate of the Israeli Jewish population does not include Israeli ethnic Jews not considered to be Jewish under halakha as well as their ethnic Jewish/non-Jewish immediate family members.

What option do you prefer ? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 05:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I myself prefer option 3 since I think the montage should make several exceptions in order for it to be less male dominant and less Ashkenazi dominant NEVERTHELSS I think we should always go with the most prominent figures in their field and the figures which are most prominent internationally. I think the old montage which is still in use demonstrates such a compromise – I mean Eyal Golan isn't a noble prize winner or the most prominent Israeli musician of all-time, nevertheless, IMO he is a good choice in this case since I believe it is important to have more than one prominent singer in the montage in order to show the variety of the most popular musical styles in Israel – and since we do not have a free image of Zohar Argov, Eyal Golan is the second most prominent Mizrahi singer as far as I know. Likewise with Ovadia Yosef – in my opinion, we should refrain from showing only one religious figure from a certain religious ethnic division. Despite not being noble winners or international pop stars, Eyal Golan and Ovadia Yosef are still very prominent figures in the Israeli society, and are some of the most known figures in their field/profession (compared for example with Shimi Tavori and Amnon Yitzhak). Another opposite example is the inclusion of former Soviet refusenik and prisoner Natan Sharansky in the old montage – although he is no noble prize winner and although I am sure we could have potentially replaced his image with someone whom had a bigger contribution to mankind, in my opinion his inclusion is important since we cannot completely disregard over one million Israeli-Jews whom immigrated to Israel from the Soviet Union and Russia through the years, and he is definitely one of the most prominent figures of this group (Nevertheless, I am opposed to reserving 3-4 images in the montage to Jewish immigrants from Russia or the Soviet Union only in order to have a representation for this group based on their current exact share in the entire Israeli-Jewish population - and that's because if we do so, most likely we'll be forced to remove 3-4 very prominent figures from the montage, such as noble prize winners or the most prominent figures in their field/profession, and replace them with various business people, politicians and celebrities whose importance is far less important and whom would be included only because they originated from Russia or the Soviet Union). Either way, after there would be a consensus on the preferred option we can certainly re-discuss in detail the most appropriate figures for each square until we'll reach a consensus on that matter as well. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 05:30, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

How would you decide on the people to include in any option, in a non POV manner? --Dweller (talk) 09:07, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

After there would be a consensus on the preferred option we'll re-discuss whom the 21 people in the new montage would be and decide each person based on consensus. Fair enough ?

Which of the options do you prefer? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 13:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Your answer has helped me decide. --Dweller (talk) 14:20, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Curious Gnome, I fixed the Hebrew in the header of the template, again. Please do so as well in the future. It is יהודים. Debresser (talk) 09:41, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

OK. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 13:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

As to the issue at hand. It is my strong opinion that we should disregard the first two criteria and focus only on the third. Notability, reliable sources. Those should be our guidelines. No making Wikipedia more politically correct by changing gender or ethnic percentages. Debresser (talk) 09:50, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

So which option do you prefer – the 3rd or the 4th option? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 13:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I noticed something on the second option. That you grouped ethnic divisions together. I'd make a point to mix the pictures randomly, not put people of the same ethnic ancestry or the same gender together. In whatever option would be the final one. Debresser (talk) 09:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

If we would end up choosing the first or the second options, the figures in the montage would definitely not be grouped apart according to their gender or their ethnic division. I did this in the illustration above in order to clarify visually the aim of these options. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 13:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrarily deciding to allocate quotas of different types of people is POV. The only NPOV option is option 4. I await with great interest an NPOV way of deciding who the people should be in that template. --Dweller (talk) 14:20, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

As I stated above a couple of weeks ago, I thinks that 3rd option would work better, since I think we should aim at showing a diversity in some fields - for example I object to only choosing one prominent singer of a specific genre while neglecting the other most prominent genre in Israel, or to choosing only one religious Jewish leader (for example, only an Ashkenazi rabbi or only a Sephardi rabbi), or not having any prominent figures from biggest group of Jewish immigrants in Israel simply because more prominent figures exist. I believe that the end result should lean towards a sort of a compromise which would present both the diversity in specific fields, yet we'll make our best attempt at presenting in the montage the most prominent figures in each field and the most prominent figures internationally through history and in the present.

Do you think we should only present one prominent religious leader, one prominent singer, and no figures of Russian origin if they are not the most prominent in their field? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 15:33, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

• What is the difference between option 3 and 4? I see the same pictures precisely. Debresser (talk) 13:49, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

“ I placed the current montage in use in options 3 and 4 below for illustration purposes only – because at this point that montage is the only montage we got which represents figures from a variety of fields/professions without being strict on exact gender percentages or exact ethnic divisions percentages. ”

Either way, with all that said, to sum up the differences – the main aim of option 3 is to present the most prominent figures internationally in a variety of fields/professions with several exceptions in order to make the final result less Ashkenazi dominant and less male dominant while the aim of option 4 is to present only the most prominent figures internationally and in a variety of fields/professions without any exceptions (even if the end result might be more Ashkenazi dominant and more male dominant as choosing this option would mean that we won't change a prominent Ashkenazi male figure like Ilan Ramon with a less prominent figure like Shai Agassi only because of the ethnic origin of the latter). Eventually though I guess the differences between options 3 and 4 would be less significant as we would still need have a lengthy discussion of each one of the final 21 figures included and attempt to reach a compromise accepted on all participants. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 16:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - half of Israelis have mixed ancestry of various backgrounds, and here there is little distinction between Sephardic / Maghrebi / Mizrahi/ Ashkenasi; not mentioning the Ethiopians; so what is the point to balance if some are still omitted? If you want balance then balance all!Greyshark09 (talk) 22:30, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

References

The blurred religious definition of the Russian immigrants

The statement "In Israel there are approximately 300,000 citizens with Jewish ancestry who are not Jewish according to the Jewish law (mostly immigrants from the former USSR). Of this number approximately 10% are Christian and 89% are either Jewish or non-religious" is very strange and hard to understand. 89% of the non-Jews are Jewish?! Let's make it clear - the term "Jew" (еврей) in the former USSR is normally understood as ethnic, rather than religious definition. The "non-Jewish" immigrants from the former USSR to Israel are either people of partial ethnic Jewish ancestry (typically people with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother) who are eligible to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return, but not being legally considered as "Jewish", or people with no Jewish ancestry who a married to a Jew / person of Jewish ancestry. Ethnically this non-Jewish people are typically of Slavic descent (Russians, Belarusians, Ukranians). Religiously most of them are just as irreligious as "pure-blooded" Jews who came from the former USSR. Since the modern Russian society is highly secularized, the religious beliefs of the post-Soviet immigrants, both ethnic Jews and non-Jews, are very varied and not standardized. That's why it doesn't make a sense to categorize any Russian-speaking non-Jewish person in Israel as automatically "Christian". The more reasonable way to classify this people is by ethnicity (as mentioned above) and not by religion. --77.126.172.237 (talk) 23:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Relevance of material

Much of this article is not relevant to the subject. The subject is Israeli Jews, not the History of Israel. Sections such as 1948 Arab–Israeli War, much of the Origins section, the Jewish National Fund,Palestinian terrorism are much better dealt with in other articles, and are much better referenced elsewhere. This article needs trimming.Melissabcup (talk) 18:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Excessive promotion of minority view and copyright violation

There is a very long paragraph in the Perceived Arab demographic threat section that promotes the views of Yoram Ettinger. To start with, Ettinger is not a demographer, he is a former diplomat who can now be reasonably described as a prominent right-wing activist. His demographic claims are not widely accepted by real demographers like Della-Pergola. So the length of the paragraph is undue and inappropriate. Even worse as far as the rules are concerned, it is largely a dump of website commented out – open edit screen to seesite/newsletter_opinion.php?id=3913 the main source] and clearly violates copyright. Example:

• The source: The modernity-driven downward trend of Muslim demography is highlighted by Iran's fertility rate of 1.8 births per woman, Saudi Arabia's 2.3 and Syria's and Egypt's 2.9.
• Our article: The modernity-driven downward trend of Muslim demography is highlighted by Iran's fertility rate of 1.8 births per woman, Saudi Arabia's 2.3 and Syria's and Egypt's 2.9.

The whole paragraph is obviously created by copy-paste with some minor wording permutations. In view of this, I am obliged to delete it. If someone wishes to return a much shorter report with a proper amount of paraphrasing, I won't object, though neutrality will still be a problem. Zero^talk 01:53, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The Israeli Jewish victims of Palestinian terrorism

This is POV and breaks WP:TERRORIST. It is not correct to use the term terrorist in the voice of wikipedia. The term political violence is acceptable, with RS that call the attacks terrorist included in the section, i.e. Some sources call these attacks terrorist, others do not.81.129.213.31 (talk) 21:21, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

demographic rubbish

The paragraph "A study released in 2011 ...." is a lot of rubbish that has to go. As well has having unacceptable sources, it intentionally confuses Israel with Israel+occupied territories. This fringe theory has been repeatedly debunked by real demographers. In fact, any "study" that fails to acknowledge that the Palestinian population registry is under Israeli control (including that of Gaza) should be dismissed out of hand. Population trends within Israel should be cited to professional organisations like the Central Bureau of Statistics and not to politically motivated amateurs. Zero^talk 00:17, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree.

I just removed the part "A study released in 2011 showed that Israel's Jewish population had increased, while the Israeli-Arab population declined". It's false and not even the source claims that, in fact it says that the Arabs increased by 36,007. I raised the issue for more than 2,5 years ago at the Arab citizens of Israel talk page. Two days ago, I finally removed the claim but didn't see it was also here. --IRISZOOM (talk) 15:56, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

casualty statistics

"Statistics from Btselem state that 3,500 Israelis have been killed and 25,000 have been wounded as a result of Palestinian violence since the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948. " —Where can these numbers be found in Btselem statistics? The Btselem website commented out – open edit screen to seestatistics/english/Casualties.asp page] linked no longer exists, but it used to look like website commented out – open edit screen to seeweb/20130111223728/website commented out – open edit screen to seestatistics/english/Casualties.asp this]. No corresponding numbers appear there. I suspect the numbers actually come from the Israeli government and should be attributed as such. Zero^talk 22:33, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Josef Tal and Ephraim Kishon out, Eyal Golan who was suspected in sleeping with teenagers in?

I must say, that selection is embarrassing. You really can't think of a worse selection possible for a collage about Israeli Jews!

Out:

• Josef Tal, the greatest Israeli composer ever, one of the founders of Israeli culture, is out.
• Ephraim Kishon, the greatest Israeli director, twice nominated for the Oscars and winner of the Golden Globe, is out.
• Ofra Haza, probably the greatest Israeli female voice in pop music, is out.
• Arik Einstein, the Frank Sinatra of Israeli music, is out.

In:

• Eyal Golan, someone who always represented shallowness and cheapness in Israeli society, and now was caught sleeping with teenage girls, is in.
• Ovadia Yosef, known for his "dark" opinions and racist remarks about Ashkenazis, is in.
• Dana International, a "one hit wonder", is in.
• Aviv Gefen, even though famous he is far behind some more notable names, and yet he is in.

Who is the ars who did that selection?? Was it done as a joke?

And that is even before we mention other problems with that collage! Five Prime Ministers? Really? I mean, isn't it enough to have one or two? I can't imagine English people or Germans putting give prime ministers in that collage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.124.27.175 (talk) 23:27, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

More on why Ovadia Yosef should be kept out

The English Ovadia Yosef page doesn't show even half of it. And a bit more on Ovadia Yosef. He is the guy who said:

• Ashkenzi Jews are not real Jews but Khazars.
• It's allowed to kill a secular person for calling Yeshiva students "parasites".
• IDF soldiers who don't keep Shabbas "it's no wonder they get killed".
• In 2000 he actually said that the Holocaust was God's way of revenging on Ashkenazi Jews for becoming Secular.
• He said that women are good only for sewing.
• He is the guy who said Arabs should be annihilated.

Needless to say, the guy managed to alienate himself from the vast majority of the Israeli population. Not only the Secular and Ashkenazi, but even most Mizrahi Jews. Most of his "fame" later came from comedy sketches making fun of his character.

Now here is my question, why would anyone would want to add a character who is completely anonymous outside of Israel, and is considered a laughing stock by most in Israel, for a collage about Israeli Jews? Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 19:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposing a new collage

I must say, that selection is embarrassing. You really can't think of a worse selection possible for a collage about Israeli Jews! Josef Tal, Ephraim Kishon, Ofra Haza and Arik Einstein are out, while Eyal Golan, Ovadia Yosef, Dana International and Aviv Gefen are in.

Five Prime Ministers? Really? I mean, isn't it enough to have one or two? I can't imagine English people or Germans putting give prime ministers in that collage.

I suggest to make a new selection from scratch. Please state your opinion about it and who you would like to see in the new collage! 2.124.27.175 (talk) 22:11, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

My suggestion will be a 15 people colleage, 3 lines of 5.

• Josef Tal, Ephraim Kishon, Natalie Portman, Ofra Haza, Arik Einstein
• Ilan Ramon, David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir, Eli Cohen, Yossi Benayoun
• Yossi Gross, Shai Agassi, Ada Yonath, Gene Simmons, Shai Agnon

Please give your ideas/suggestions/thoughts! Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 21:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Are there any ideas in the collage? Please help develop a discussion on it. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 21:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Offering an alternative

Here is the alternative I am offering, I will explain immediately after this selection any style. {{Infobox ethnic group

|group = Israeli Jews
יהדות ישראל

|image =

Robert Aumann	Natalie Portman	Ephraim Kishon
Arik Einstein	Golda Meir	Boris Gelfand
David Ben-Gurion	Ada Yonath	Yossi Benayoun
Shai Agassi	Achinoam Nini	Yitzhak Kaduri
Shmuel Yosef Agnon	Ofra Haza	Abie Nathan

Explaining why the old collage is not good enough

• The style. 21 people is simply too much, it looks overloaded and you can barely notice who is in it. Due to the fact it is overloaded, the images become small. The point is not to shove every contemporary Israeli you can think of but to represent as many areas as possible.
• The idea is to represent the notable Israeli Jews in various areas, there is no need to over-represent. 5 prime ministers in one collage?? 1 or 2 is fine, but 5?? It really doesn't make any sense.
• Some of the characters are plain dodgy.
  • Eyal Golan is embarrassing, that is the public opinion in Israel, he represents the "arsim" culture, and not long ago he had a scandal of sleeping with minors so right now the public opinion of him is not positive. How did he qualify to the collage, but not let's say Ofra Haza? Just like him she is Yemenite and sings Mizrahi music, but she had international acclaim and was voted in the list of the greatest Israelis:
  • Ovadia Yosef is the guy who said that all Arabs should die and that Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews, even most Mizrahi Jews who he claims to represent stay away from him. When I've seen him in the collage my first thought was that whoever did it was anti-Israeli.
  • Dana International a one hit wonder when Israel has singers like Ofra Haza and Achinoam Nini, who just like her are Yemenite females, by the way.
• The most notable and famous Israelis, those most loved and recognized in Israel, didn't actually appear in the collage, funny enough. I start thinking that whoever did this collage is not actually Israeli and has very little idea of Israeli culture and society.
  • Josef Tal, the greatest Israeli composer ever, one of the founding fathers of Israeli culture and the greatest Israeli classical composer ever, is out.
  • Ephraim Kishon, the greatest Israeli director, twice nominated for the Oscars and winner of the Golden Globe, is out. His films Salah Shabati and Policemen Azulai are probably the two greatest Israeli films ever made.
  • Ofra Haza, probably the greatest Israeli female voice in pop music, is out. She not only is the "mother" of Mizrahi music in Israel, she had international success.
  • Arik Einstein, the Frank Sinatra of Israeli music, is out.
• In most collages today on Wikipedia they try to keep balances to avoid discrimination. The balance on this collage is just horrible:
  • 5 women out of 21. That's only 23% of the collage, do women make up only 23% of the Jewish population of Israel?
  • Only 4 Mizrahi Jews, and that is how I know an Israeli definitely didn't make this collage. Israel is a mixed society, 50% of the population are Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews, and they play an important role in Israeli culture and society. Only 4 Mizrahi Jews out of 21 people, that's only 19% of the collage, do Mizrahis make up only 24% of the Jewish population of Israel?

Explaining the New proposed collage

• Style - The style is 5 lines of 3 people. fact that in terms of width the collage takes less space, we can afford to have larger images and it's better seen. The style offered here, 5 lines of 3 with a woman in the middle of each line, is the style which was used in the Russian Jews page and Ukrainian Jews, which were influenced by he 5 lines of 3 style used on the Ashkenazi Jews page. It demonstrates that style was already used on various pages related to Jews.
  • Shai Agnon on the bottom left is holding a pipe to the right, Abie Nathan on the bottom right is holding a pipe to the left, creating nice unique (for a collage) symmetry.
• A more balanced collage:
  • 5/15 people in the collage are women, that is 33%, 10% more than in the previous collage. To compensate the fact it's not 50%-50%, the middle image in every line has to be a female, which gives women respect, and which is also good in terms of style.
  • Yitzhak Kaduri, Becky Griffin, Yossi Benayoun, Shai Agassi, Abie Nathan and Ofra Haza (Eli Cohen obviously should be in but there is no free image on Wikipedia), are Mizrahi. 6 people out of 15, which is not a perfect 50%-50%, but way better than the previous collage. 40% is better than 24%.
  • There is one Haredi (ultra orthodox) rabbi in the collage, which is in correct percentage to the percentage of Haredi Jews in Israel (rabbi Kaduri), and there are two non-ultra orthodox (wearing a kippah) people in the collage, Robert Aumann and Shai Agnon, which is in correct proportion to those in the Israeli population which are Orthodox yet not ultra-Orthodox.
• Truly notable Israelis which were absent in the previous collage:
  • Ephraim Kishon, the greatest Israeli director ever, twice nominated for the Oscars and winner of the Golden Globe. His films Salah Shabati and Policemen Azulai are probably the two greatest Israeli films ever made.
  • Ofra Haza, probably the greatest Israeli female voice in pop music. She not only is the "mother" of Mizrahi music in Israel, she had international success.
  • Arik Einstein, the Frank Sinatra of Israeli music, known as the voice of Israel.
  • Shai Agassi - An Israeli entrepreneur, known for promoting electric cars as an alternative to fossil fuel technologies. Agassi was named one of the top 20 'Global Influentials for 2003' by CNN-Time magazine in 2003. In 2009, Agassi was included in TIME magazine's 100 most influential people list. In 2010, Foreign Policy magazine included Agassi on its annual list of the 100 most influential global thinkers.
  • Achinoam Nini, The most successful Israeli female singer on an international level. She sang and wrote the lyrics for a song from the Oscar-Winning Life is Beautiful film, two songs for the GoldenEye film, and collaborated with the likes of Stevie Wonder and Sting.

A full person-by-person explanation of the collage

• • Robert Aumann - A noble prize winner and one of the most outspoken people in the Israeli society right now. Ashkenazi male.Equal Representation Bonus: Religious, wears a kipah. Present in the previous collage.
  • Natalie Portman - Probably the most famous active Jewish actress today, won the Oscars. Ashkenazi female. Equal Representation Bonus: A woman. Present in the previous collage.
  • Ephraim Kishon - The greatest Israeli movie director ever, with two of his films, The Policemen and Salah Shabati being nominated for the Oscars. Ashkenazi Male. New Addition.
  • Arik Einstein - Considered "the voice of Israel", the greatest and most popular singer in Israel ever. Ashkenazi Male. New Addition.
  • Golda Meir - One of the most famous leaders in Israeli history and one of the first female prime ministers in the world. Ashkenazi Female. Equal Representation Bonus: A woman. Present in the previous collage.
  • Boris Gelfand - The greatest chess player in Israeli history. Ashkenazi male. Equal Representation Bonus: Represents the Russian aliyah. New Addition.
  • David Ben-Gurion - The first Israeli prime minister. Ashkenazi male. Present in the previous collage.
  • Ada Yonath - The first Israeli woman to win a Noble prize. Ashkenazi female. Equal Representation Bonus: A woman. Present in the previous collage.
  • Yossi Benayoun - The greatest Israeli football player. Equal Representation Bonus: Mizrahi. New Addition.
  • Shai Agassi - An Israeli entrepreneur, known for promoting electric cars as an alternative to fossil fuel technologies. Agassi was named one of the top 20 'Global Influentials for 2003' by CNN-Time magazine in 2003. In 2009, Agassi was included in TIME magazine's 100 most influential people list. In 2010, Foreign Policy magazine included Agassi on its annual list of the 100 most influential global thinkers. Equal Representation Bonus: Mizrahi. New Addition.
  • Achinoam Nini, The most successful Israeli female singer on an international level. She sang and wrote the lyrics for a song from the Oscar-Winning Life is Beautiful film, two songs for the GoldenEye film, and collaborated with the likes of Stevie Wonder and Sting. Equal Representation Bonus 1: Female. Equal Representation Bonus 2: Mizrahi. New Addition.
  • Yitzhak Kaduri - An Israeli rabbi. He was so influential that 300,000 people attended his funeral. Equal Representation Bonus: Mizrahi. New Addition.
  • Shmuel Yosef Agnon - Considered the greatest Israeli writer. Won the Nobel Prize and appears on an Israeli money note. Ashkenazi male. Present in the previous collage.
  • Ofra Haza, probably the greatest Israeli female voice in pop music (together with Achinoam Nini). She not only is the "mother" of Mizrahi music in Israel, she had international success. Equal Representation Bonus 1: Female. Equal Representation Bonus 2: Mizrahi. New Addition.
  • Abie Nathan, The most famous Israeli humanitarian and peace activist. When he died the Israeli president Shimon Peres said in a speech about him: "He was one of the most prominent and special people in the country... He is the man who dedicated his life for other people and for a better humanity." Equal Representation Bonus: Mizrahi. New Addition.

Waiting to hear opinions and different voices about the collages and idea to change it. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 21:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Opinions/ideas/proposals/comments

Comment: Ew! You're right. That collage [the old collage] is horrific. All I can say is that keep the gender relatively balanced. Also, try not to exclude Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews. They're 50% of all Israeli Jews. I don't know a lot about Israel and its society. All my knowledge about it comes from historical wars, aliyahs, and censuses. I'll join the discussion soon enough. Khazar (talk) 03:44, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment: It would be preferred if the images align with each other. Remember how Grigori Perelman was an eyesore in a previous Ri=Russian Jews article? Khazar (talk) 03:49, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree! I'm just leaving it for after the discussion. I will crop every image to make sure the images match once the collage is approved. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 07:31, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with each and every point made by the proposer. I do have questions about points he doesn't make:

• I live 15 years in Israel, and I never heard of Ada Yonath, Shai Agassi and Becky Griffin;
• I see 1 rabbi. All the other people are not religious. I think religious people are underrepresented. Debresser (talk) 09:39, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for your comment! First of all, you had only 1 religious person in the previous collage as well. I replaced Ovadia Yosef with another Sephardic rabbi. Haredis are only 12% of the Israeli population so it's a fair representation. You don't want to over-represent the group, we need to stick to statistical proportions. Also, Shai Agnon is religious (he always wore a kippa), so that makes it one Ultra-Orthodox (the rabbi), and one Orthodox (not ultra), which is Shai Agnon, which matches the proportions in the population.
• Second, you obviously moved to Israel from another country and probably still reading the English speaking news (and I am not saying it in an offensive way, it's normal. I admire people who make Aliyah, it's hard and it's a very brave move). But as a Tsabar, I can tell you every Israeli knows who Shai Agassi is (one of the most famous business-men in Israel), Ada Yonath (her face was on every paper when she won the Noble prize few years ago), and Becky Griffin (she was a host on MTV and every girl wanted to be like her in the 90s). I'm telling you, ask any Tsabar in Israel and they will know who Shai Agassi and Ada Yonath is. Those two definitely don't lack recognition. They might not remember Becky Griffin if they are very young, but the only reason I added her is for the male-female balance and because she is Mizrahi. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 13:35, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• After thinking about it more, Becky Griffin is forgotten, Achinoam Nini instead? Also a female and also a Mizrahi.90.198.246.7 (talk) 18:48, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

What about replacing one of the rock musicians with a chess master, like Boris Gelfand? --Off-shell (talk) 18:44, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Wow, nice idea!!! It will also be a good representative of the Russian Aliyah. How about instead of Gene Simmons? I mean he was born in Israel but he didn't live there most of his life. Also, we still have two musicians, Tal and Einstein, left in the collage. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 18:48, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

One might also add one more scientist, e.g. one of the Nobel Prize winners, but not from the same field as Ada Yonath. I see two names in the category: Robert Aumann and Daniel Kahneman, both in economics. Aumann is also a mathematician, Kahneman is also a psychologist. --Off-shell (talk) 19:07, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I love both ideas. I do feel Daniel Kahneman won't add anything Yonah didn't, but Robert Auman is religious and very outspoken about society so good for representation balance. I definitely want Robert Aumann in, but instead of whom? We can't really remove a Mizrahi or a female because of the balance thing. Will it make sense to use him instead of David Ben Gurion because we already have Golda Meir as PM? Or no? Or Shmuel Yosef Agnon? Over Boris Gelfand maybe? I love Gelfand and would love him in but most Israelis I'm afraid are not interested in chess. What do you think? 90.198.246.7 (talk) 20:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I proposed these scientists because I felt there were too many musicians, in particular 3 singers. But since you impose these strict political constraints, I would not put them in. Any of the candidates for replacement that you mentioned is in my opinion more known to the wide audience (at least abroad) than the new ones. --Off-shell (talk) 21:25, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Will it make sense to put him instead of Tal...? You are right about the too many musicians. Einstein is "the voice of Israel", and Ofra Haza is the godmother of Mizrahi music, and a female, so I think the collage can do without Tal. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 11:15, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Fine with me. Looks good (as far as I can judge). --Off-shell (talk) 18:54, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

So apparently we can't use Eli Cohen because of some license problems, any ideas who shell we use instead...? It preferably should be a Mizrahi male. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.2.161.214 (talk) 13:12, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I found one! Abie Nathan, a world famous peace activist. Any opposition? He was a famous peace activist, becoming a symbol of the Israeli peace movement, and also doing a lot to collect means for people in the third world. When he died the president of Israel Shimon Peres himself gave a speech saying how he tried to make the world a better place.94.2.161.214 (talk) 22:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Also, from an esthetic point of view... Nathan is on the bottom right, while Agnon is on the bottom left, and each of them is holding a pipe towards each other, which just looks very nice from an artistic point of view. 94.2.161.214 (talk) 22:25, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Some further suggestions for diversification: What about replacing one of the writers (Agnon or Kishon) by Martin Buber, a philosopher? And what about replacing Achinoam Nini with Yasmin Levy. The reason for the latter is that Nini is very similar to Ofra Haza both in her descent and in her activity (pop singer), while Levy would represent the "classical" Sephardi, while she also sings Ladino Sephardic songs. --Off-shell (talk) 12:08, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I love the idea of Buber, but problem is... Kishon is not appearing in the collage as a writer, but rather as the greatest Israeli Director ever (nominated for the Academy award twice and won the Golden Globe). Agnon is the biggest Israeli Writer ever, which makes it hard to remove him. We can't remove a woman or a mizrahi, so that complicates it. Is there any Ashkenazi you think it's worth replacing? Kishon and Agnon has too much international fame (in cinema and literature, respectively).

The problem with Yasmin Levy is that she is not that famous in Israel. There are "circles" that know her, but in general her fame or influence never got close to the one of Haza and Nini. I agree Nini and Haza have some similarities, but the genres they are representing are very different. Haza was singing Mizrahi music, while Nini is more world music. 94.2.161.214 (talk) 07:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, now I see why you want to keep both Agnon and Kishon. The next candidate would be Ben Gurion, as Golda Meir represents the political leadership and is a woman. Concerning Nini vs. Levy, if Levy is so little known, OK. Frankly speaking, I didn't know about both of them until recently. I just thought of finding a candidate representing the "classical European" sephardi. Further considerations: With Arik Einstein, Nini and Ofra Haza there are currently 3 popular singers in the collage which is too much. Thus an alternative to Ben Gurion is to replace Arik Einstein with Martin Buber, though you seem to favour Einstein very much. Finally, I also propose to include at least one "star" of classical music like Daniel Barenboim, Maxim Vengerov or Itzhak Perlman. And for that I vote for replacing Nini and reducing the number of women to 4. It is really not that crucial to have exactly 5 women in the collage. You can still make a symmetric placing if you like it, putting a man in the middle. --Off-shell (talk) 20:53, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I support the idea to remove Ben Gurion, as politics are represented by Golda. I support including a classical figure instead, one of your choice. Who do you think is the most famous abroad?

I think we must keep Nini because she is Sephardic and helps with the whole balance. It's not just because she is a woman.

I do think Arik Einstein, "the voice of Israel", is mandatory in the collage. He is probably as big as Presley or Sinatra in Israel. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 21:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I think these classical musicians are all very famous abroad. I suggest Barenboim. Still the collage remains unbalanced. There will thus be 4 musicians in the collage, and no place for a famous philosopher like Buber? --Off-shell (talk) 21:40, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Fair point. Why not leave out the classical musician (as to Israelis, no matter what classical musician you name they will always see Arik Einstein the symbol of Israel), and add the philosopher instead of someone else? Due to representation issues it shouldn't be a Mizrahi or woman, which makes it hard, but what about... OK, I might get a lot of arrows in my direction for that, but do we really need two prime ministers? Why not add him instead of Ben Gurion? Then again... Ben Gurion and Golda Meir gained the status of mythical figures, so getting rid of one might cause a controversy or make many people raise their eyebrow... Getting rid of Robert Aumann is a bit hard due to the fact he represents religious people as well.

Ok, let's look at it this way. We have two athletes, Boris Gelfand (lets count chess as a sport) and Yossi Benayoun. Benayoun represents Mizrahis, which makes him untouchable (even though Gelfand is more notable)... but one might argue Gelfand represents the Russian Aliyah. The thing is, does the Russian Aliyah need someone representing them in the collage? Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 22:50, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

References

Dear PacificWarrior101, please don't do changes to the collage without discussion first

I reverted the changes you did with Israeli Jews collage. I understand you were trying to contribute and came up with ideas you thought were good, but in order to make any changes you must suggest them on the talk page and wait for a discussion. The people in the collage were established by a long discussion and consensus, and to change that you need to achieve a consensus.

I will explain why some of the changes you made are impossible:

• Omri Casspi is completely useless for the collage. We already have Yossi Benayoun to represent sports, so why do we need Casspi as well? And Benayoun is Mizrahi, which is important for representation.
• Also, who did you remove for Casspi? Ephraim Kishon, the greatest Israeli director ever and one of the greatest Israeli writers, twice nominated for an Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film and three times for a Golden Globe Award (he won two Golden Globe Best Foreign Language Film Awards). And you deleted him for Omri Casspi? Pardon me, but how does that make any sense?
• Aaron Ciechanover instead of Robert Aumann. Why? Ciechanover is not adding anything to the collage as we already have a scientist, Ada Yonath. ANd unlike him, Ada Yonath is a female, which is good for representation. Unlike Ciechanover, who is certainly notable but unknown for most Israelis, Aumann is a famous figure thanks to his speeches on politics. Also, he is important as he represents the religious people.
• Removing Achinoam Nini for Bar Rafaeli. Achinoam Nini is Mizrahi and female, which is good for representation, and had achieved more international success than any other Israeli singer. Bar Rafaeli, an Ashkenazi, damages the Ashkenazi-Mizrahi Balance and to be fair her nomination was declined in the past for simply not adding anything to the collage.
• Removing Shai Agassi is not good for the Mizrahi-Ashkenazi balance.
• Abie Nathan is important for the Ashkenazi-Mizrahi balance. Also, Shimon Peres said of him: "He was one of the most prominent and special people in the country... He is the man who dedicated his life for other people and for a better humanity."
• I agree Ilan Ramon is good for the collage but you can't just add him, you need to do it through the talk page. In any case, removing Yitzhak Kaduri is certainly a bad idea as he is the only representative of Charedis and he is Mizrahi. He is also the only rabbi on the collage. I don't think we need any more, but one is needed.

Please take this as constructive criticism and not in a negative way. Whatever change you want to do, run it through the talk page first. The current collage was established after a long discussion full of compromises and changes, please make sure to continue the same way. 90.212.48.112 (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

What is needed is to explain who you want in the collage, why would they be good for the collage, who would you like to see them instead and why is that person removable from the collage. 90.212.48.112 (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

One change in the collage

We already have two female Mizrahi singers in the collage. Given the fact that Ofra Haza is more famous than Achinoam Nini, I decided to replace the latter for Ilan Ramon, which was the first Israeli astronaut.--Ashurbanippal (talk) 03:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I (obviously) reverted you. You don't change the collage and then explain yourself. First you ought to reach a consensus, and THEN if you get it you do the change. "I decided to replace the latter for Ilan Ramon"... that is the point, you don't "decide", you discuss.

On that part I strongly oppose. If you would bother reading the previous consensus, you would see that Achinoam Nini is needed in the collage for two reasons (besides the fact she reached international success):

• She is a woman.
• She is Mizrahi.

Both groups which are under-represented in the collage. If we cut someone out it obviously has to be an Ashkenazi male, as that is the group over-represented in the collage. It certainly can't be a Mizrahi or a woman!

I suggest adding Ilan Ramon instead of Boris Gelfand. Boris Gelfand is certainly notable, but we can't really remove David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister), Ephraim Kishon (Won the Golden Globe twice and nominated for the Oscars), Arik Einstein ("The voice of Israel"), or Robert Auman (who also represents religious people). I feel like out of all Ashkenazi Males, Boris Gelfand is the most expandable one.

I certainly see the need in having Ilan Ramon in the collage. As mentioned, he was the first Israeli astronaut.

Would you support adding Ramon instead of Gelfand? Mr. Sort It Out2 (talk) 04:00, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

But you have two Mizrahi female singers: Nini and Haza. It seems redundant. Why not removing one? Haza maybe? Gelfand is the most famous Israeli chess grandmaster! Why not add an additional row with Ramon, Refaeli and Casspi?--Ashurbanippal (talk) 04:13, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

We can't decrease the amount of women or the amount of Mizrahis. A Mizrahi woman can only be replaced with a Mizrahi woman. The two singer argument was discussed... the reason it was decided at the time to go ahead with it anyway is due to the fact Haza is the most famous Israeli singer, while Achinoam Nini is the most successful singer abroad. Also, it's not that easy to find famous Mizrahi Israeli women who are notable enough and have a free image to use.

If we make the collage bigger it will look to messy, in my opinion anyway. That's why that size was decided in the first place. Also, Casspi and Rafaeli, in my opinion, are not notable enough for the collage.

Ramon is a great suggestion, no one can argue with his notability, but I really don't see who we can delete except Gelfand? The other Ashkenazi male we have are either as or more notable than Ramon. Also, if we count chess as a sport, then we have Benayoun and Gelfand representing sports. Benayoun is Mizrahi so we need him for the balance, but it shows once against that Gelfand can be removed. Mr. Sort It Out2 (talk) 12:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

"the palestinian terror organization"

"The Israeli Jewish victims of Palestinian terrorism This section requires expansion. (September 2009) See also: Palestinian political violence

As part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, over the years, the Palestinian terror organization have carried out thousands of terrorist attacks directed against the Israeli civilian population aimed primarily at the Israeli Jewish population. The terror attacks have led to the deaths of thousands of Israeli Jewish civilians."

The word terror and derivatives is used four times here in two sentences. Which "Palestinian terror organization " is being referred to here ? References ? Sources ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 17:08, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Since this article is about Israeli Jews there should be mention of the Irgun and other Israeli Jewish racist terrorist abominations. After all, Israeli Jews invented modern political terrorism and the Irgun terrorists are Israeli Jewish national heroes.

Just kidding, of course. That would never be allowed in "neutral and unbiased" Wikipedia.

:^)

Keith McClary (talk) 06:15, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

New Infobox

I created a new montage. Fist of all, the previous montage had too many politicians. No nation has so much prime minister among images, when due to controversy it's actually suggested to avoid politicians (same thing religious figures).

Second, the little amount of Mizrahis is a discriminating thing. Some people say that the picture should just show famous Israelis, but there were quite a few famous Mizrahis so it's not a problem.

Another problem was the lack of some really famous Israelis. Not having Ephraim Koshon, a legend in world cinema, or Shmuel Agnon is really a shock.

The selection I put is constucted from names brought up here before:

• Natalie Portman (Ashkenazi) - The most famous Israeli actress ever, won an Academy award.
• Itzhak Perlman (Ashkenazi) - The most famous Israeli musician ever.
• Yossi Benayoun (Mizrahi) - The most famous Israel footballer ever, being on of the leaders of Liverpool at the time.
• Yuval Banay, (Mizrahi) - Mashina was voted to be the Israeli top band ever and he is their leader.
• Ephraim Kishon (Ashkenazi) - The most important Israeli director and satirist, nominated for Academy award and for Golden Globe.
• Shmuel Yosef Agnon (Ashkenazi) - The most important Israeli writer ever.
• Ofra Haza, (Mizrahi) - The most famous Israeli singer in the world, brought mizrahi music into the mainstream.
• Eli Cohen (Mizrahi) - "The Israeli James Bond", got valuable information for Israel.

I think that selection represents Israelis in a more equal way. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 21:46, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Due to the fact we don’t have a free Ofra Haza picture I replaced her with Achinoam Nini. Of course when there will be a free picture of Ofra Haza it should be in the picture due to the fact she is definitely one of the most famous Israelis! I chose Achinoam Nini because she’s also a Yemenite singer who reached success outside Israel, that way the representation of Yemenites and women doesn’t go down. Does anyone have any other suggestions? 79.99.144.141 (talk) 08:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Dear TheCuriousGnome, When the original infobox was made on Wikipedia it was a long time ago, so I don't think the old concensus is relevant anymore due to the fact many new people came with new ideas.

The old image looked professional in the design term, But the selection already then arose many question marks: 1. It looked to big, which is a bit embarrassing.

2. It had too many politicians (prime ministers) and military figures, which does not contribute to the image of the Israelis and feeds the false stereotype that Israelis are militant people obsessed with politics (when Israel has so much more to offer).

3. Having some really embarrassing figures like Eyal Golan, who is known as a joke in the Israeli society. Also, with all respect to Dana International, she’s a one hit wonder, you don’t pur a one hit wonder in a colalge of famous representative. 4. Lack of two of the most notable Israelis ever, Ephraim Kishon, Agnon and Ofra Haza.

I’ll be glad to work with you about a new selection, two heads are better then one and I think actually that the best number is 12 (just to give representation to more groups in the society), but you have to agree that the old selection doesn’t fit the Wikipedia Standards. Too much politicians, to much people, and to little really notable Israelis (Kishon, Agnon, Haza). Hope we could work together and not just reverted! I did start a discussion about it on the talk pages ages ago.

I myself am not a Jews or Israeli, my wife is, and I think that the fact I learned it's culture and also my knowledge of famous Israelis in general could help create an imageto represent Israeli Jews in the best way! 79.99.144.141 (talk) 08:02, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Due to the fact we don’t have a free Ofra Haza picture I replaced her with Achinoam Nini. Of course when there will be a free picture of Ofra Haza it should be in the picture due to the fact she is definitely one of the most famous Israelis! I chose Achinoam Nini because she’s also a Yemenite singer who reached success outside Israel, that way the representation of Yemenites and women doesn’t go down. Does anyone have any other suggestions? 79.99.144.141 (talk) 08:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Additional 4 people

I think it’s a good idea to add another line of 4 people, any suggestions who we can add? Any groups that we should give representation to? 79.99.144.141 (talk) 08:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Suggestions

I don't think a vote is the right idea. I think we should try to have a dicssion first and only then move to a vote. What ifboth images have good thinks and bad thinks, so why not take the good from both? I suggest going to the Suggestions section and working there. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 10:08, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I suggest to keep the old image as a base, but to make few changes:

• Ephraim Kishon instead of Yisrael Meir Lau - Meir Lau though accepted by the Ultra-Orthodox, is desliked by most Israelis for his comments against secular people. Kishon, from the other hand, is loved by all Israelis and is considered the best Israeli movie director and satirist ever. Nominated for an Academy award.
• Achinoam Nini instead of Dana International - Dana International is a one hit wonder, that's not enough to qualify in the image. Nini is famous all around the world and is also a Yemenite female singer.
• Shmuel Yosef Agnon instead of Ariel Sharon - There are simply too much politicians in the picture, while Agnon is the greatest Israeli writer ever.
• Shai Agassi instead of Eyal Golan - Eyel Golan is considered a weirdo by many people and represents only the chavs ("Arsim"?) in Israel, whole Shai Agassi is a Mizrahi businessmen who is compared to Steve Jobs for his innovative ideas.

I also suggest to remove 3 additional people so the image will not be so loaded:

• Ovadia Yosef - The guy is considered a clown by most Israelis, not talking about his racist comments wishing Arabs to duy and calling Ashkenazis filth.
• Golda Meir - It's enough to have Ben Gurion to represent the left and Begin the right, no need to load it with so many politicians.
• Yitzhak Rabin - It's enough to have Ben Gurion to represent the left and Begin the right, no need to load it with so many politicians. 94.3.21.223 (talk) 10:10, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

It is too early to have the discussion above. At this point in time (after both of our opinions on this issue have been made) we need to let more Wikipedians participate in the general discussion held below on this matter, and only later on, after various Wikipedians would express their opinion on the matter during a longer period of time (a couple of days or a week), act following to the consensus reached (whether we like it or not). The discussion taking place below is not a voting per se - even though all participants of the discussion below are asked to specify whether they prefer the old or the new montage, I am also making sure that everyone would indicate whether in their opinion we should change specific items in their preferred montage (such as using specific images from the old montage in the new one OR vise versa). In addition, I have also raised up the possibility that we would base the montage on the exact current gender percentages or the exact current Jewish ethnic divisions percentages within the Israeli Jewish community - therefore, we need to wait and see what the rest of the participants think of this issue. It is very important that this decision would be based on a wider consensus, and therefore I ask you to allow the discussion below to take place without any interferences. As I have mentioned in the discussion below, if the majority of the participants in the discussion below would request that we make different fixes, or if the majority would state that both montages are bad and request to re-create the montage from scratch, we can definitely have another big discussion on the matter in which participants would be asked to express their opinions on all specific suggestions brought up so far in order that eventually we would reach a composition which would be to the satisfactory of the majority of the participants in the discussions held here on this issue. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 13:31, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

But why bother return to the old one? Wouldn't it be easier to add thing to the new one? Anyway, it's better then nothing. I like the suggestions and what I would also add is replace Aviv Geffen with Berry Sakharof and Bibi Nethanyahu with Nathan Alterman (everyone knows how controversial Bibi is and how he's hated by a big part of the Israeli population. If you make a survey who is the worst Prime Minister ever, the guy will win it in a lanslide. Not just left hates him, a big part of the right doesnt he him as the best option, and if not the haredim he could never form a coalition). Mensch with Shteig (talk) 17:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I actually don't mind using the old one as a base, if the right changes will be done it will look amazing! 94.3.21.223 (talk) 19:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

How about some of you brutal ethnic-cleansing generals and religious fanatic settler politicians? Keith McClary (talk) 06:28, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

"encouragement to leave by Arab leaders"

"Palestinians Arabs fled their original lands to become Palestinian refugees. The reasons for this are disputed, and range from claims that the major cause of Palestinian flight was military actions by the Israeli Defence Force and fear of events such as Deir Yassin to an encouragement to leave by Arab leaders so that they could return when the war was won." Could we have a recent source for the latter claim? I thought that had been thoroughly discredited. Keith McClary (talk) 02:13, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Clarifying Fertility spending

The sentence "Israel spends $60 million annually on publicly funded fertility treatments" creates the impression that this is a special dedicated program, when in fact this is just one of the MANY services of Israel's universal health-care. These treatments are just as available to the non-Jewish population. I wish I could find a breakdown of the women who use this service. The majority are probably exactly what you would expect of fertility treatments - women trying to have their FIRST child and only rarely the eighth. Having big family has been part of Jewish culture for many centuries. NOT part of some "make babies" campaign.

As such, I added the following to clarify this point: "As part of Israel's universal health-care coverage, Israel spends $60 million..." I hope no-one objects. Shmuel A. Kam (talk) 22:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

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