Talk:Isobel Miller Kuhn

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Isobel Miller Kuhn article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Women's History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Canada: Ontario / Toronto Low‑importance

	Canada portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Ontario portal This article is supported by WikiProject Ontario.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Toronto (assessed as Low-importance).

Vancouver Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Vancouver, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada and the surrounding metropolitan area on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.VancouverWikipedia:WikiProject VancouverTemplate:WikiProject VancouverVancouver articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Christianity Low‑importance

	Christianity portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women writers Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women writers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women writers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women writersWikipedia:WikiProject Women writersTemplate:WikiProject Women writersWomen writers articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women in Religion Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of the Women in Religion WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Women in religion. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Women in ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject Women in ReligionTemplate:WikiProject Women in ReligionWomen in Religion articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

}

encyclopedic tone

This passage is problematic for several reasons. I made some changes, but Canihaveacookie reverted most of them.

She became an "agnostic," as many of her contemporaries were who were abandoning religion in that day of shifting religious climates. Popular and vivacious, even though she didn't drink or smoke, Kuhn was always seen with the right people and at the right parties and dances, according to her mother's upbringing of her. She had even gained a place on the coveted university drama group as a freshman, which was a rare honor. Yet, after a crisis in which the now college senior found out that her mother-approved man that she was secretly engaged to not only was cheating on her, but also told her to expect him to cheat in their marriage, she was having sleepless nights and was on the verge of taking her own life. However, instead of drinking a bottle of poison from the bathroom medicine cabinet, which she intended to do, Kuhn gave over that impulse to the sound of her father's sleeping groans from his bedroom. Conflicted and unsure what to do, she went back to her bedroom and cried out to God to make Himself real to her; and, if He did she would give her whole life to Him, no matter what He asked of her. Although Kuhn had become a believer from that moment, she was very much a secret Christian in the beginning, testing out her new faith in small ways and renouncing "worldly" pursuits a little at a time. However, she didn't return to church for a long time.

Here are some observations.

1."as many of her contemporaries were who were abandoning religion in that day of shifting religious climates" sounds like a personal opinion. It could be re-worded "as many of her fellow students were who were abandoning religion." Speaking about the religious climate of the country at the time of Kuhn's college years seems beyond the scope of this article. If some of her friends and acquaintances abandoned Christianity it is noteworthy that she was influenced to do the same, but this isn't the place for extra social commentary.

2. "Kuhn was always seen with the right people and at the right parties and dances, according to her mother's upbringing of her." What does this mean, exactly? Were they "right" as in "a group of successful students"? or "right" as in "popular"? Either way, it sounds like personal opinion again and a commentary on her life from some unknown source.

3. "she went back to her bedroom and cried out to God to make Himself real to her; and, if He did she would give her whole life to Him, no matter what He asked of her. Although Kuhn had become a believer from that moment,..." This passage is very personal and I would request that unless it can be a direct quote from her biographical material, it should be re-worded. Again, I attempted to make this change, but Canihaveacookie reverted back. Some things to think about - this passage is full of Christian terminology that is difficult for the average person to understand. God is "real" to me, but I would say that it has to do with a conviction about the truths about God as they are revealed in the Bible, and that it is not "make-believe". But this passage assumes an understanding that cannot be taken for granted. Again, to say "Kuhn had become a believer from that moment" implies an understanding that she had converted, but I would not take it for granted that if someone prayed such a prayer that they had changed from agnosticism to Christianity.

4. "renouncing "worldly" pursuits" Such as?? I know of a few, but again this is Christian terminology that while wonderfully appropriate for a Christian missionary biography, isn't encyclopedic language like what would be expected for untrained readers.

Thank you.Brian0324 (talk) 15:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Brian0324

As you may have noticed, Brian0324, I'm in the process of adding all of the necessary attribution, to show that what I'm saying isn't coming from me. It's written in the books about whose life I'm writing about.

Also, the one main quote you excised from the "Wiki" IK article, as far as I'm concerned, should have quotations around it, beginning and end, and the words with quotations already around them should have 'these' around them.

As to your enumerated thoughts:

1.) I just plain disagree that writing about the religious climate of the day is beyond the scope of the article, if it's in even one of the Kuhn books.

2.) This may be personal opinion that I'm writing. However, if it's in the book that way, especially one of Kuhn's books, it's the author's personal opinion and therefore qualified without further explanation.

3.) This has already been given the necessary attribution and also was written this way by the author; and so, if you have a problem with it, take it up with Isobel Kuhn.

4.) If you want to nit-pick this, go waste someone else's time. Why can't you understand this? A person doesn't have to be a Christian to understand the difference between the generalized terminology of "secular" and "sacred" pursuits. This is the vernacular of our day. Beyond that, I'm not trying to rewrite the book, so why am I obligated to write down every or any worldly pursuit Isobel Kuhn gave up? I'm not. Neither am I trying to write another book.

Canihaveacookie —Preceding comment was added at 00:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article size

This is just food for thought, but I have a real concern that this article may get too long once the inclusion of Kuhn's notable work among the Lisu is comparable to the current treatment of her early life. (See WP:SIZE) Incidental details are wonderful at times, but there are many here - her brother's army service, the spiritual climate of Canada in the 1920's, her lengthy courtship and even the soft drinks that were served at one event. I would recommend some editing here, but maybe once more of her story is told then the article can be re-evaluated.Brian0324 (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made some hard decisions about what could be taken out of this article to improve its readability and length as per above. The passage that I removed about her immediate experience after her conversion was a bit confusing and unresolved. Her prayer is recorded already and I think that is fair enough just to sum up her struggles immediately afterward in this encyclopedic context, for the sake of brevity. It doesn't diminish the implications of her "testimony" to remove the extra words, it's pretty clear that she gave her life to Christian service based on the sum of the rest of the article. Her notability stems from her work in China with her husband, and my goal was to make some cuts to balance out the article that was so heavily weighted about her early life and early spiritual struggles. Valid as they are, there were probably spiritual struggles that she had on the mission field that could be just as valid that are not recorded. If this article is easier to read, interested individuals will always be able to look up her biography for the full story - as with any encyclopedia.Brian0324 (talk) 16:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]