Talk:Isle of Arran

Lord of the Isles?

Arran can hardly have been granted to the 'Lord of the Isles' in 1263, for the simple reason that there was no Lord of the Isles. The first man so called was Good John of Islay in the fourteenth century. Rcpaterson 05:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

You are confusing the official Scottish title with the de facto Lords of the Isles. Somerled was not a 'Lord of the Isles' in the sense of his MacDonald descendants but noone is going to argue that he was not himself the Lord of the Isles/King of the Isles. There have been Lords of the Isles since the 12th century or arguably even earlier although the official title was no recognised/awarded by the Scottish crown until sometime later. siarach 09:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you are quite wrong. The designation Lord of the Isles was not an 'official Scottish title' in the sense that it was awarded by the crown; it was self-assumed by the chiefs of Clan Donald, and only later aquired formal recognition. The first man to use the title was John of Islay in a letter he sent to Edward III in 1336, where he described himself as Dominus Insularum -'Lord of the Isles.' I know that the traditional histories of Clan Donald argue that his predecessors, like Angus Og, were also Lords of the Isles, but this is not the case, and it is quite unhistorical to argue the contrary. In the past they had been awarded a variety of honours, the most prestigious of which was ri Innse Gall-King of the Hebrides, the title held by Somerled. Angus Og, who fought with Bruce at Bannockburn was only ever known as 'of Islay.'

The political context in which John of Islay assumed the title is also highly significant. Edward Balliol, with the support of the English King, was attempting to secure his uncertain title to the Scottish crown, making lavish promises of land grants to John in return for his help. John accepted the land, but clearly having no confidence in Edward Balliol, sought confirmation from Edward III, who was also Dominus Hibernie-Lord of Ireland. Here was one prince talking to another. John was quite deliberately taking on a semi-regal title to define himself in a far grander way than the other supporters of Balliol

I really have no wish to enter into one of these arcane-and pointless-discussion over semantics, all too common in these talk pages; but I do have to emphasize that while there were always lords in the Isles there were only ever four chiefs of Clan Donald who enjoyed the title of Dominus Insularum.

There is also, I have to say, not a trace of evidence that Arran was ever granted to the lords of Islay.

Rcpaterson 22:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Catacol whitebeam

Please note article catacol whitebeam - about tree recently discovered which is unique to Arran. --MacRusgail 15:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Only here for the beer

Although its probably true that "The most popular beer is the Arran Blonde" I can't see an obvious reference to that on the current version of website cited. Hilariously this states: "Unfortunately, our beer (both bottled and in Poly & Mini pins) is only available to customers in Mainland UK. We apologise for any inconvenience caused." Bad news for locals I imagine. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 18:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

That's curious. It's been a while, but my favorite beer clearing house had a few dusty bottles of Arran Ale in 2006-2007 or so, and that was on the east coast of the united states. A great beer if i remember rightly. -MalkavianX (talk) 18:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Arran logo.gif

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

fair use rationale added Finavon (talk) 15:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Has the image been removed? Looks like the article could do with a new lead image.Lord Spring Onion (talk) 18:46, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Brewery logo is now File:Arran logo.png, but would not be suitable as a lead image. The Goatfell image (File:Goatfell from Brodick Harbour.jpg) comes up as a preview image, which works well. Finavon (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Shame the little bit of up-to-date publicity for the brewery was removed! I for one am looking forward to the new Arran Brewery brands! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.213.165 (talk) 23:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation page

Should we try and make Arran the DA page? I just landed there, a bit baffled. As an ancient historical area in Persia, I'm not sure for the rational of it being the direct page. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there is a case for "Arran" being the current Isle of Arran page and the Persian one being renamed. Ben MacDui 13:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree, but we need to be very careful here. First of all, I'm biased: Every day of my childhood, I enjoyed a magnificent view of Arran, (when it wasn't obscured by rain or mist) and also for several decades afterwards whenever I returned home to visit parents. So I (we?) tend to assume that our Arran is naturally the most important Arran in the world. There was a lot of discussion (see talk:Arran) about a year ago resulting in a page move giving us the current Arran. Unfortunately no-one mentioned it here, so I missed it.

The region is important historically and strategically. Is a wee Scottish island really more important?

As it stands at the moment, Arran should be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (that is, mentioned on the first line) of the dab page, but isn't. There is also come confusion between Caucasian Albania and the various historical names of the region known as Arran - something I'm not au fait with, and I suspect it could require a lot of effort to research (and beware the edit wars on that page leading up to the move). I'd like to get this right, but it's going to require quite a bit of work.

Just for information, I looked at the recent page hits:

                 2/09        1/09       12/08
Isle of Arran:   4661        4999       3924
Arran:           1097        1192       1087

This tends to support our case, but isn't conclusive on its own. We could even make out a case for having this page renamed as Arran, and making it the primary topic, but I think I would still prefer to have the dab page at Arran. Just beware stirring up the hornet's nest again about the renaming of the Persian/Iranian/Azerbaijani region.

--NSH001 (talk) 18:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree on the need for caution but in spite of being a history buff, the Persian Arran was so totally new to me I though for a moment it was a hoax. I think the stats are ambiguous, incidentally, unless they filter out hits for Arran (Persia) who then moved on to Arran (Island) via the DA page. I certainly didn't intend landing in Persia earlier! Akerbeltz (talk) 18:33, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Hm we still haven't gotten anywhere with this, have we? Akerbeltz (talk) 13:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, having just jumped between Arran pages... I (re-)propose we redirect Arran to the dab page. The dab page itself needs a hatnote (rather than a See also link) to dab with Aran because I bet many people get the spelling wrong. I don't know what the best way of doing it is though, stick a redirect proposal on the Arran page? Akerbeltz (talk) 13:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, the dab page was moved to Arran as we requested, and following extensive discussion the historical region has been moved to Arran (Caucasus). I've now completely cleaned up all the incorrect links to Arran (mostly from my NSH002 account), so I reckon that finally completes the task. Good job, everybody. --NSH001 (talk) 13:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

For future reference, the main discussion is at Talk:Arran (Caucasus). --NSH001 (talk) 10:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Isle of Arran/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Starting review.Pyrotec (talk) 10:58, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Initial comments

This article is wide-ranging in scope, is well-illustrated and appears to be well-reference. It apears to stand a good chance of making GA, but I need to do the full reveiw before making that decision.Pyrotec (talk) 11:25, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

A comprehensive, wide-ranging article

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

An impressive article. I'm awarding GA-status as it stands. However, as a "geography" article, I would have expected to see the usual table on weather, i.e. temperatures and rainfall, but the scope is sufficently broad for me to pass the article as it stands. You may wish to consider WP:FAC - it probably needs more work to get through that.Pyrotec (talk) 22:11, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Many thanks - and you are quite right about the weather. I'll get onto that. Ben MacDui 08:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Màiri MacInnes

What is tagged, the fact she lives on Arran or the fact she's a well known singer? Dunno if it counts but she has a site [1]. Akerbeltz (talk) 00:25, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the issue is not her personal notability but whether or not there is an RS stating that she lives on the island. I had a very quick look and found this but it is hardly current. Ben MacDui 08:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a quick reply as I am not at home - Mac is right, her notability is not in question. I'll have a look later on for some refs on her. Her own site is out of date too, but my instinct is that the entry is kosher. --NSH001 (talk) 17:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Coincidentally Akerbeltz, the last time I looked at the rambles.net site was shortly after the death of Mikel Laboa, whom I'm sure you are familiar with. --NSH001 (talk) 17:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I am indeed!

Right, I have a 2002 ref giving her address as being in Lamlash, see the Féis Rois Annual Report on page 24. Will that do for now? Akerbeltz (talk) 18:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Or this from 2007. I'd be happier it wasn't a red link tho'. Ben MacDui 19:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll try and create a stub over the weekend. Too busy tonight and tomorrow I'm afraid. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Issue with Capital

Correct me if I am wrong but because the council houses are in Lamlash, does that make it the capital rather than Brodick? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Culldude (talk • contribs) 12:49, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I would not expect Scottish islands to have a "capital" - possibly an administrative centre, or a (former) county town. Council houses could be anywhere. Finavon (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that it doesn't have a capital as it is not self-governing, but is run from Irvine, so i guess it's a question of what is the 'main town'. Perhaps Culldude means council buildings rather than council houses? Lamlash does have the fire station, high school etc, but Brodick has the library, port, newspaper, most of the hotels & industries ... I think most people see Brodick as the main town even if its population is a fraction lower. But then, I am a visitor and not a resident. If in doubt, why not put both of them down. Lord Spring Onion (talk) 08:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree this is rather colloquial and certainly uncited. I'll amend. Ben MacDui 11:58, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Isles of Arran

This near title redirects to Aran Islands [now], a 1900 reference used the name in an unqualified manner. The Penny cyclopædia has this after the entry on "Arran",

ARRAN, ISLES OF, a cluster at the entrance of Galway Bay on the west coast of Ireland, sometimes called the South Isles of Arran, to distinguish them from the island of Arranmore off the coast of Donegal, which is sometimes called North Arran.[2]

… so it goes. This needs some careful diambigs and notes [cross posted] cygnis insignis 18:23, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know. Is there anything you think needs added to the hatnote here? Ben MacDui 12:14, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

More a cross post for future reference, matching the same note at the other target. The hatnote was fine I think, as is anything I could think of with the links. The redlinks above need targets, and maybe double checking, there is sometimes disambiguation problems arising from different editors working on similar titles. The shifting spelling may cause a problem with links, the context was the clue for me; I'd forgotten about different Isle and Isles. I'm working with old sources, and just passing by when I accidentally linked here. cygnis insignis 13:40, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

OK - I have never heard of "North Arran" myself and Mr. Google seems to think that it just means "north Arran". Ben MacDui 08:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps these ambiguous names were published in older texts to confuse invaders, like changing the signposts :-) The source suggests Arranmore is "North Arran", which gives a note in text on the confusion, but not a call I want to make without a 2nd opinon. Again, this will be relevant to this page as part of the navigational metacontent. cygnis insignis 09:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Local Government

The current article claims; "After the 1975 reorganisation of local government Arran became part of the district of Argyll and Bute in Strathclyde Region."

After 1975 Arran was part of Cunninghame district of Strathclyde region (and not Argyll and Bute district) see the Cunninghame page of Wikipedia194.176.105.53 (talk) 14:43, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out - it's fixed now. 20:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

ethnic cleansing?

calling the clearances ethnic cleansing is a bit of a stretch. the loss of Gaelic culture was an unintended consequence. this is just ridiculous. the suggestion is offensive to real victims of ethnic cleansing. Tinynanorobots (talk) 05:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it is pretty clear that the extirpation of Gaelic culture was seen as a positive bonus by many of those involved in the Highland clearances. Whatever the motivations the end result was the wholesale and in many cases forcible removal of a people who spoke one language with those of a different one. On another island it was recorded that "the wild outcries of the men and heart-breaking wails of the women and children filled all the air between the mountainous shore of the bay". It is not clear to me what you think the difference is. Ben MacDui 09:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Geophysical imbalance

WP in these islands articles is presenting Arran and other islands south of Kintyre as NOT being the Inner Hebrides. The editors are taking that concept so much for granted that they don't even give references for it. I suppose they think it is common knowledge, or something like that. Not by a long shot. I can find just as many references to Arran as a Hebridean island as I can find references that aren't sure or speak of it as different.

I got no doubt that somewhere someone credible thinks it is not. How about telling us where? Furthermore, even if there is a government standard swearing the Hebrides do not include Arran, what difference does that make? There is no "official" standard for material such as this. I don't think anyone, even the government of Great Britain, has the power to define and measure long-standing, traditional concepts. They would be a little late for that. They need to do it in the Middle Ages. I further propose it is not WP's mission to offer the world geographic standards that now must be used in place of tradition. What do you think we are, anyway? It is our mission to present balanced credible views by credible authors. We need here and in other articles both points of view with sample references. I'm not going further with this right now because when I work on an article I like to work on everything in it. This is a major thing wrong with it, however, so when I do work on it, armed with references, I will be overthrowing the idea that there is an "official" view good for all men at all times, like the golden rule. WP favors balance. And, I would like to know where you get your ideas.Botteville (talk) 01:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

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King's Cave error

The picture of kings cave is not the cave, but one beside it. Can somebody please fix this?

Source: I was there a few days ago

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Name

@Ben MacDui: shouldn't it say "Isle of Arran" or "Arran" similar to Isle of Skye and Isle of Mull? Unlike North Rona and South Rona "Isle of Arran" is used by the OS so its not "Isle of" for disambiguation purposes. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, what is "it" in this context? Ben MacDui 18:38, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

The lead, namely it should have "Isle of Arran" first in the intro like here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Well I suppose it could be that way round but

• it is 'Isle of Arran' for disambiguation purposes - see Arran and also 'Disambiguation page' above.
• the OS have a habit of doing this without an obvious reason. We don't have articles called 'City of Birmingham' or 'London Town' and it's an island called 'Arran', at least in most normal circumstances. It appears as this in e.g. Haswell-Smith, Hamish (2004). The Scottish Islands. Edinburgh: Canongate. ISBN 978-1-84195-454-7., Murray's The Islands of Western Scotland: the Inner and Outer Hebrides and Watson's The Celtic Place-Names of Scotland. Ben MacDui 14:31, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

• That's because "Arran" doesn't have a primary topic. That doesn't mean "Arran" would be the preferred location of this article similar to the fact that the island is at Isle of Skye but the DAB is at Skye (disambiguation) (with Skye redirecting to the island).
• Birmingham and London are called just that by the OS, by contrast the OS uses just "Tiree", "Islay" and "Jura", we also have Isle of Wight, Isle of Man and River Thames. HHS says on page Xiv that he has given the OS names with a few corrections such as "Rum" instead of "Rhum" (which is actually now "Rùm" on OS). In other words it seems he has rejected "Isle of" as being part of the name. I'd also note that in a few cases he uses the OS name in the tables but not for the entry its self for example "Island of Stroma" v "Stroma". You also might want to see the discussion at Talk:Holy Isle, Firth of Clyde#Requested move 26 October 2019. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:33, 9 November 2019 (UTC)