Talk:Irrealism/Archive

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The article claims:

Here's the paragraph in question:

Some irrealists have adopted a militancy uncharacteristic of members of other philosophical tendencies and put irrealist theories into practice. The obscure history of irrealism in music includes the hardcore band Suine Anget and a few hardcore bands in Italy which espoused the principles of irrealism in their lyrics.

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If "irrealism" is as the article claims a "philosophical" term, then -- as an otherwise disinterested reader -- I would appreciate a reference to a few philosophers (rathe than just a rock-band) who have made this argument. It would also be useful to know what their specific argument against realism on the other hand, and idealism/relativism/reductionism on the other.

I guess I am also expressing my ignorance of philosophy, but I didn't think idealism and relativism really went together. Likewise relativism and reductionism. Also, I thought the opposite of idealism was materialism. I admit I am ignorant, but I look to an encyclopedia to educate me. Perhaps these arguments could be spelled out more clearly. SR

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I couldn't agree more, SR! "Where's the beef?" as they used to say in the 80s. I can confirm that it is a philosophical term, however. --LMS

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I don't understand the difficulty in understanding the idea of espousing irrealism in the lyrics of hardcore songs. Certainly if something can be spoken, it can be sung. If something can be written, it can be sung. This is a fake question. Plus I never claimed that musicians "put irrealist theories into practice" merely by espousing irrealism in their lyrics. If you will read what I actually wrote it does not say anything like this.

Daniel C. Boyer

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It would be not unlike espousing intuitionistic logic in hardcore rock songs. You could do it, but it would be kinda funny.

Do they say they espouse irrealism in the lyrics of their songs?

BTW, it was someone else, apparently, who wrote:

Some irrealists have adopted a militancy uncharacteristic of members of other philosophical tendencies and put irrealist theories into practice.

I didn't say that you, Daniel, said that.

Anyway, c'mon, I'm on pins and needles: please give me an example of the lyrics which espouse irrealism!

I agree with the Wrights and Mackies

and all their many, many lackies

who say that when we say we ought to p

we're really spouting fictions, see

...

Hmm.  :-) --Larry Sanger

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Project Zero (the harvard research program into learning in the arts) could be taken as an example of militant irrealism. If you read reports of its early days, much of the work was done against the background of Nelson Goodman's philosophy, and yet was highly practical (e.g. psychological/of direct relevence to teachers). --cfp 16:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hardcore punk bands

Moved this from the article, as without actually saying which bands it sounds a bit like gossip (I'm not saying it is gossip, just that it sounds like it):

Some hardcore bands in Italy have claimed to be irrealist.

-Seth Mahoney 19:04, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)

I don't have any sources for it, I'm afraid, I was just merging it in from the "Irrealism in music" article. That was the entire content of that article, so I figured it needed to be redirected unless there was something more to say about music specifically. --Michael Snow 19:23, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Maybe we should keep it here until we can come up with some specific references. Is the user who wrote the irrealism in music article available? -Seth Mahoney 22:11, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Unfortunately, all of the substantive contributions appear to have been made by IPs. --Michael Snow 22:36, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The band it used to list as irrealist is Suine Anget - unfortunately, a google on them pretty much just turns up wikipedia mirrors. -Seth Mahoney 23:10, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)

Of a page that has been deleted here, probably because it was not considered encyclopedic material. Same probably goes for the sentence I merged in, and you removed. --Michael Snow 23:23, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)